Is North Calais Too Hard?

Ole Olander · Post by **Ole Olander** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:09 pm

For Am1s from the gold tees, that is. I'm being a bit provocative here, but the best Am1 score in the two GMO rounds was a 64. Three 65s and five 66s. Average probably 72 or 73 for Am1s, 10 strokes over par. SSA was approximately equal to our club par, 62.

For Pros, no question, everyone plays gold tees; they're Pros. But how about the Am1s? I'm thinking they should throw from the blues, but I hear the argument that top Am1s are heading for the Pro division and should play the same tees as the Pros. (An argument for Pro2?)

But if you haven't got a laser 350+ foot drive with excellent control, and can't shape shots to follow the fairway turns, you won't score well on NC Golds. If you need a 50 yard wide fairway to "S" out your big drives, you probably should play NC with a "couple of mid-ranges and a putter". And from the blue tees.

Shawn Mullen · Post by **Shawn Mullen** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:31 pm

Paul. I've played your course two times, both at the GMO, it's a great course and you have a beautiful piece of Vermont heaven there. Most of the Am1's in the field had not played the course at all before the event (most of the players i talked to anyway). This is what i shot at the gmo:
Shawn Mullen 34162 934 77 67 57 0 201 notice the 10 shot difference from 1st round to second (second round i literally left every driver i own in the car). A couple more rounds there and that will get down to the middle to low 60's. I think the AM1's should be playing from the long tees. I don't have the lazer 350 foot backhand that you describe and i agree that would help you play REALLY well anywhere not just at your course. However on your course you need more of a good mid range and putter game to stay on the fairway. The pros and am's i saw have success were doing just that teeing off with mids and putters. It's not that your course is too difficuly it's the fact that most amateur players want to crush their fastest driver whenever they can for that birdie chance rather than trowing their roc/wasp/midrange twice and get a three. This got many people in lots of trouble out there. Leave the am1 players on the back tees and make us play smarter. We will eventually learn to break par on your course. Wow I think that was my longest post ever! - Thanks for building a great course Paul.

Karl Molitoris · Post by **Karl Molitoris** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:40 pm

Paul,

Personally, I'm NOT an advocate of different ability-groups playing from different tees (everyone likes to "see" how they "stack up" vs the field).
Unless there is a forced carry which the vast majority of players (from that certain ability-group) can NOT pull off.
No "big, forced carries" = same tees. For all. It'll just take them more shots / more time.
Unless you figure out that a certain ability-group is wickedly slowing down everyone else (in a shotgun start situation).

Karl

blackfalls · Post by **blackfalls** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:13 pm

AM 1 from the longs all the way!

It helps build character.

Ole Olander · Post by **Ole Olander** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:08 pm

Geezum Shawn - I try to be provocative, even poke a post of yours, and what do I get in response? A thoughtful, well-written, respectful post in reply. Thank you! And I agree with much of what you say, that many of the Am1s there that day had not played the course much before the event, that many were getting into trouble ripping drivers on the long holes, and that staying clean is the only way to achieve good scores at NC. But the best scores weren't achieved by Pros throwing only mid-ranges and putters. Avery, Adam, Nate, Jay and many others scored with big, controlled drives followed by controlled approaches on the long holes.
Hi Karl - I have a different philosophy about the use of different tees, born in part out of the long battles NCDGA experienced during the gradual lengthening of the course from 3700 feet to 7500 feet. Lesser-skilled players didn't want to be stuck throwing a course where their scores were going to be 20 or 30 over par or more. For me the four sets of tees we have made sense as a "handicapping" device for our club tournaments, and had the effect of speeding up the round for everyone. At first it was unsettling to some to play from "wussy" tees, but over time I think most have come to appreciate that the best in each division will throw somewhere around par from "their" tees.

That happened in the GMO and in recent VT States events. I do agree that all Pro divisions should play the same tees, despite the increasing division scores seen from MPO to MPM to MPG to FPO.

Karl Molitoris · Post by **Karl Molitoris** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:42 pm

"Hi" back (at you) Paul,

When running a tournament, the "good of the whole" is paramount...thus ensuring that "flow" (read: no backlogs) happens MUST be done...and using different tees for different abilities may be needed (IF the course REALLY ends up being THAT much harder for varying abilities).
No questions here.

But I personally don't care if my ego is hurt by ME shooting +30 (over par); just means I sucked that day and got / shot what I deserved.

I would take the attitude if I wasn't prepared to get "whomped" I shouldn't even sign up for such a hard-coursed tournament.

But I understand that some people might "bite off more than they can chew" (and "suffer" - and may grump at you - later).

Karl

Ps: Don't fret too much, you got a good thing up there!

T.M.DYER · Post by **T.M.DYER** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:24 pm

Hey Paul,

Have only heard great things about the evolution of the course at North Calais.

I applaud your efforts to encourage input to what is yours personally.

I have not had the honor of playing at your place in the last few years.

I hope to remedy that in 2009.

Hey, have you ever moved the pin on that one green to the edge to make it more challenging???

I know that you have brought it to the committee to disscuss in the past, just wondering???

If the hole is to long, then move to a shorter tee, it seems that with four different tees that you should be able to allow most all skill levels to be carding scores just over par.

I made the open players play from the longest tees when I ran tourneys.

The adv. played from a shorter tee. I feel that if you are an advanced player who feel that you can and should play from the longest tees then they should move up to the open div.

Paul what ever you have them do...It will be a well thought out plan that has been given careful consideration from many angles before implementation...

Look forward to playing your course in the future.
Thanks,
T.M.DYER

Bill Newman · Post by **Bill Newman** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:31 pm

dif. skill levels should play holes that are appropriate for their abilities. It makes for better golf. For example a nice challenging par 3 for a pro might be a boring par 4 for Ams.

Chuck Kennedy, do you want to chime in here?

Chuck Kennedy · Post by **Chuck Kennedy** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:00 pm

I accidentally stumbled in here. Courses designed for a particular skill level should be more "challenging fun" versus "challenging hard" if the design is done well. One way to determine that independent of player comments is whether the scoring spreads are better on the holes designed for their level than another level, and the scoring averages are in line with the par set for that level.

With regard to events, I usually try to play the tees intended for a player level in one round and the next level higher (if there is one) in the second round for the additional challenge/difficulty so the players feel challenged in a tournament setting. The other factor has to do with making sure that the lower divisions aren't forced to play way above their level so they can get ratings because they wouldn't have enough propagators to produce ratings if they are the only divisions to play their own short layout.

Ole Olander · Post by **Ole Olander** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:43 pm

Thanks for the feedback guys! I am leaning toward Am1s continuing to play golds at NC, as "character building" - seeing where they, as the elite Ams, stack up against the Pros on the same course.

And in response to the discussion about "driveable" holes at NC, Ole plans to take a firewood cutting on #4 on the left side at the top to give a little more room to flex. He may also take the big popple at the right of the fairway just before the swamp to open up (just a little bit) the RB hyzer over the swamp and into the backdoor of #6. Ole's also got some changes in the works for #10 and #11.......

Hey TM, we've missed you. Hope you do make it up for the Kingdom Open, August 8,9. I haven't moved the basket on 16 but last year we put the basket for #18 at the top of the hill behind the future clubhouse! Another 40 feet in length, 15 in elevation, and a real potential for 100 foot roll-aways. Is that interesting enough?

Hi Chuck - I've resisted playing different formats in the same tourney because I wanted a bigger database for SSAs. But I like the idea, and once that damned Ole quits messing with the course, I may use it.

Thanks Karl - despite the fact that NC is purposely designed to discourage those undiscified overhand "hurls" you love, hope to see you up here again sometime.

Doug Bechtel · Post by **Doug Bechtel** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:58 am

Hey Paul,

Interesting comments. I learned your course at the tournaments, loved the design and the challenge as an Am1, and am in favor of Am1's playing from the long tees no matter what. It taught me how to play smarter and better and prepared me (for better or worse) for what it takes to play up in Pro. Am1's should be challenged at the highest level, whether they plan to jump up or stay put. Your course is a great example of that - hard, fair, excellent design, fun. I wanted the challenge as an AM1 to play the best the course had to offer. Total scores don't matter as much as seeing how you play against the course, yourself, and the rest of the players in your division.

Morgan Wright · Post by **Morgan Wright** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:48 am

Ok let me chime in. North Calais is maybe the best course in the northeast but it needs more open holes. Woods is great but give me some wide open chuckage and maybe a couple roller shots. Sailing drivers through 700 feet of wide open Kitty Hawk aviation, where you have to be Chuck Yeager to navigate, is fun.

blackfalls · Post by **blackfalls** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:34 am

$15000 or more for a couple boring holes?

I disagree about only throwing putters in the woods. Courses like N Calais require accurate 300' plus throws on most of the holes. If you want to win a tourney at this course you have to throw accurate drivers. 200' throws with a midrange is smart playing but it will not earn you the birdie or the victory.

It will be interesting to the scoring spreads this year at the Kingdom Open.

Joe Yaskis · Post by **Joe Yaskis** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:09 am

Paul

I would have to disagree about the overhand not being an option at your course. I threw a boat load there about 3 years ago. I also fell in love with good old Mr. Buzz. I feel I have grown as a player and cant wait to stop up there in August.

Al Rosa · Post by **Al Rosa** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:09 pm

I like to overhand up the hill to the basket on 18.

Ben Parker · Post by **Ben Parker** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:11 pm

Paul,
The course is hard, but it is fair. I would like to see a tournament format where AM1 (and possibly other divisions) played Gold and Blue for the separate rounds of the tournament. I agree that Gold is the bigger challenge, but I prefer to play two different layouts during a tournament.