Chuck..Foot Fault-Call it or not? Who's Wrong?

[Adam McGahey]

OK- it was only a casual doubles event. But..we saw our opponent lining up on a stretch shot, we knew when he released that we could call foot fault.
I said to my partner, 'check it out, and let's bust chops if he parks it'. We could have warned him about the illegal stance before he threw (he was off 6"), but it was casual. We were kidding, his foot was obviously off the mark. He threw, and parked it. We both called foot fault. (as a joke), but warned him that, in a major event, this could actually happen: if you park it, they will call it. If you mess it up, they might not so pay more attention.

Anyone have this happen to them, when (for example and I've heard it) someone lining up obviously to the wrong basket yet no one warns you? Or you know, they saw it coming and were waiting for the outcome? Happened to me once when I first started playing, never again. They admitted it, that's how I knew. I parked the shot, had to re-throw and cost me a stroke because the second attempt was too far out for me to make the putt.

Couldn't you turn around and call a courtesy violation on them, if it was obvious? Or, should you just have to know where the foot/basket is and that's it and tough, regardless.

Chuck?

[Adam McGahey]

OK let me just clarify:

Let's say, I am lining up my shot out of some bushes which require some stretching/thought process to line my shot up and I lose track of where my foot is, somehow not realizing it moved into an illegal position...understandable. I throw, park it, and get called for foot fault.

The other guys in the group say,' yeah, dude we saw that coming all the way-had to call it.'

So my point is, if they saw it coming and didn't warn me obviously waiting for a good or bad outcome, is that not a courtesy violation?

BTW-I've played with Joe Mela (pronounced Mee-La) a couple of times and never got called for a foot fault! )
That's impressive!

[James Lane]

I have learned to wait in silence until the shot is made, then call the penalty.

Most times I'm apprehensive about making noise (warning them) while they are setting up, especially in competitive play.

Nothing to do with a good or bad outcome for me. remember, the call has to be made within three seconds anyways, hardly time enough to see what the shot does. It's me not wanting to disturb said player while they are lining up.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Anyone have this happen to them, when (for example and I've heard it) someone lining up obviously to the wrong basket yet no one warns you? Or you know, they saw it coming and were waiting for the outcome?

It's situational. If the person knows the course and is Advanced or higher level, I'm unlikely to say anything in advance since they may have some unusual routine for setting up the shot correctly by the time they take the throw. If it's a newbie who may not know the course layout for that round, I probably would jump in if I had time before the player starts their throw. Most situations will be between these two extremes and it's a judgment call.

[Chuck Kennedy]

So my point is, if they saw it coming and didn't warn me obviously waiting for a good or bad outcome, is that not a courtesy violation?

I think it's a courtesy violation if they actually admit they were waiting to make the call. If they don't say anything about seeing your stance in advance and waiting to call you on it, then you would have little basis on which to call a courtesy violation.

[John DeBois]

I have learned to wait in silence until the shot is made, then call the penalty.

Most times I'm apprehensive about making noise (warning them) while they are setting up, especially in competitive play.

Nothing to do with a good or bad outcome for me. remember, the call has to be made within three seconds anyways, hardly time enough to see what the shot does. It's me not wanting to disturb said player while they are lining up.

I agree with James. It's a bad idea to warn somebody they are about to commit a fault. There is no way of telling a fault will happen until it actually does.

[Dave McHale]

I'm with james and JDB

and the fact that a player could try and call courtesy violation on someone for "not telling them they were GOING to commit a violation" makes me want to puke. Minority Report, anyone? No rules have been broken until they've been broken. And what happens when you try and say "your foot isn't beh--" and they shank their shot because you started talking?

No question in my mind, I'm not saying anything until the shot is made.

[Gary Cyr]

and the fact that a player could try and call courtesy violation on someone for "not telling them they were GOING to commit a violation" makes me want to puke.

Agree,..that's BS.

It's a bigger courtesy violation for a player to be deciding whether they will call a violation based on the result of your shot! A foot fault is a foot fault and you call it because it's a foot fault. Not because it's a foot fault that results in a great shot.

[Mike Murphy]

I also hate when people complain about getting called on a foot fault because, "well you had a few this round and I didn't call them on you."

Well, thats your own fault. I'd rather you call me on them so I can adjust and do it less.

[Mark Valis]

Let's say you and another player have marked shots very close to each other . You putt out from the wrong mini and you get called on a foot fault from the player that the mini belonged to , your telling me he doesn't have to tell you that you are throwing from the wrong mark? I think that is piss poor etiquette.

[Gary Cyr]

Let's say you and another player have marked shots very close to each other . You putt out from the wrong mini and you get called on a foot fault from the player that the mini belonged to , your telling me he doesn't have to tell you that you are throwing from the wrong mark? I think that is piss poor etiquette.

No he is not required to tell you. You are required to know what mark to throw from,....Mark

[Dave McHale]

the boiled-down point is you havent done ANYTHING wrong until you actually throw from that mark.

[Mike Connell]

Let's say you and another player have marked shots very close to each other . You putt out from the wrong mini and you get called on a foot fault from the player that the mini belonged to , your telling me he doesn't have to tell you that you are throwing from the wrong mark? I think that is piss poor etiquette.

Different rule--

803.10 Throwing From Another Player's Lie

A. A player who has thrown from another player's lie shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning. The offending player shall complete the hole as if the other player's lie were his or her own. No throws shall be replayed.

B. The player whose lie was played by the offending player shall be given an approximate lie as close to the original lie as possible, as determined by the offending player, a majority of his or her group, or an official. See section 803.11 C if the disc has been declared lost.

[Joe Yaskis]

You never have to tell anyone that they are commiting an infraction. It is up to the player to know the rules and to adjust properly.

[Adam McGahey]

I'm with james and JDB

and the fact that a player could try and call courtesy violation on someone for "not telling them they were GOING to commit a violation" makes me want to puke.

Just got a chance to review the outcome of the scenario, and I am really disappointed. Not with the responses, but the fact McHale had the perfect opportunity to use this smiley and he didn't.

Seems foot fault questions drive us all crazy---I see it ALL the time and shame on me for not calling it when I know I should-not fair to the other competitors but usually no one else was paying attention to it to second it.

When I run casual doubles at Warwick, with newbies and I see them foot faulting or about to, I warn them and say, that I'm only doing it because when you get more involved in the sport and play your first PDGA competitve event, they WILL call you on that and I'd hate to see you get rattled because you made a silly mistake. My point was, that it WILL be called. Obviously, that may not be the case depending on the outcome of the foot fault throw, is what I'm saying. You can say, you have so many seconds to call it but as soon as the disc leaves the hand most of us can tell if it's going to wind up a good or bad shot.

So in an event, if someone is unaware they are about to foot fault should you, if you see it warn them? Hmmm...I guess not. They should know the rules.

All I was trying to say was, call the foot fault regardless of the outcome, if you see it good or bad. I've been called twice on that in PDGA events in the 11 years I've been playing-the first event when I was green, then adjusted my game so as to not have that happen again.
The second time was the first NT event I played in a few years later, a mistake-- and I make sure I plant my foot right as part of my concentration of the game.

Everyone should make planting your foot right part of their game, and be called if they don't or else you will all make me

[Dave McHale]

I'm sorry I let you down Adam. I don't use the extended smileys much

[Paul Oechsli]

A new foot fault question for Chuck, et al.

Playing doubles, team A vs team B. Player A-1 is driving from the tee box. Player B-1 immediately calls a foot fault before seeing the result of the throw. Neither player A-2 or B-2 were paying attention and don't 2nd the call. Player A-1 waits to see the drive land OB and then opts to 2nd the call against himself. Player A-1 redrives and lands in bounds.

I was told by the members of the group that this is how the rules work. Is that correct? If so, seems like a flaw in need of a fix in that a player can gain an advantage by waiting to see the result of his throw and then weighing in to 2nd a foot fault against himself in the absence of corroboration from any other members of the group.

[Shawn Mullen]

A new foot fault question for Chuck, et al.

Playing doubles, team A vs team B. Player A-1 is driving from the tee box. Player B-1 immediately calls a foot fault before seeing the result of the throw. Neither player A-2 or B-2 were paying attention and don't 2nd the call. Player A-1 waits to see the drive land OB and then opts to 2nd the call against himself. Player A-1 redrives and lands in bounds.

I was told by the members of the group that this is how the rules work. Is that correct? If so, seems like a flaw in need of a fix in that a player can gain an advantage by waiting to see the result of his throw and then weighing in to 2nd a foot fault against himself in the absence of corroboration from any other members of the group.

I'm pretty sure that's fine to do, the call just needs to be made withing the correct ammnt of time. It all depends on how long it was from when the player A-1 threw the first shot to when the foot fault was called and the second made. If it all takes place within the three seconds, you can't wait longer than that to see if it lands in bounds to second.

[Eric Kevorkian]

A new foot fault question for Chuck, et al.

Playing doubles, team A vs team B. Player A-1 is driving from the tee box. Player B-1 immediately calls a foot fault before seeing the result of the throw. Neither player A-2 or B-2 were paying attention and don't 2nd the call. Player A-1 waits to see the drive land OB and then opts to 2nd the call against himself. Player A-1 redrives and lands in bounds.

I was told by the members of the group that this is how the rules work. Is that correct? If so, seems like a flaw in need of a fix in that a player can gain an advantage by waiting to see the result of his throw and then weighing in to 2nd a foot fault against himself in the absence of corroboration from any other members of the group.

Doesn't the original foot-fault call have to be seconded by someone within 3 seconds of the call? EDIT: I didn't find anything that said that...just that the ORIGINAL call must be made within 3 seconds.
A foot fault is a foot fault is a foot fault - outcome of shot has nothing to do with it...if they waited to see the result of the shot to see whether or not they wanted to second it, call em for a courtesy violation because that's just weak.

[James Lane]

There is nothing in the rules about time-limits for seconding calls. This has definitely come up before and certainly should be addressed.

[Shawn Mullen]

There is nothing in the rules about time-limits for seconding calls. This has definitely come up before and certainly should be addressed.

So it could be seconded at any time. The initial call just needs to come within 3 seconds? That makes that situation just fine by the way the rule is.

[James Lane]

You got it

[Eric Kevorkian]

There is nothing in the rules about time-limits for seconding calls. This has definitely come up before and certainly should be addressed.

So it could be seconded at any time. The initial call just needs to come within 3 seconds? That makes that situation just fine by the way the rule is.

But certainly calls the throwers character/integrity into question...

[Chuck Kennedy]

No time limit on seconding a foot fault. Note that the thrower did not make the first call (which is the rule that should be changed, i.e., the thrower should not be allowed to initiate a foot fault call). If it's apparent that the thrower was actually waiting for the result of the throw to second the foot fault call or not, I would consider giving him a courtesy violation warning for unsportsmanlike conduct regardless whether he actually seconded the foot fault call or not.

[Raymond W. Parrish]

I would consider giving him a courtesy violation warning for unsportsmanlike conduct

Where in the 801.01 does it specify that the vague "unsportsmanlike conduct" (or, if you prefer, the specific "waiting until seeing the result of a throw before deciding whether or not to second a rules violation call related to the throw") is an action that could trigger a courtesy violation?

[Chuck Kennedy]

It's secifically in 804.05(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct - where the behvior could be reported to the TD for possible DQ. But in 801.01C, refusal to perform an action expected by the rules could be delaying the seconding of a foot fault call based on waiting for the shot outcome.

[Raymond W. Parrish]

So you would not "consider giving him a courtesy violation" (as you had originally written), but rather "consider giving him an unsportsmanlike conduct violation"? Just making sure you're actually aware of what rule you are arbitrarily rewriting. Looks like you're not, but are using more of a "shotgun" approach; good thinking.

I'm not sure where in the rules it says that in the event you are called for a stance violation, you are expected to second it before the outcome of the shot is determined. Can you direct me to that passage?

[Paul Oechsli]

No time limit on seconding a foot fault. Note that the thrower did not make the first call (which is the rule that should be changed, i.e., the thrower should not be allowed to initiate a foot fault call). If it's apparent that the thrower was actually waiting for the result of the throw to second the foot fault call or not, I would consider giving him a courtesy violation warning for unsportsmanlike conduct regardless whether he actually seconded the foot fault call or not.

This is what I thought was the case. It is a FLAW in the rules. A rule should never allow a player to gain an advantage by calling an infraction against oneself. Plus, given that another player initiated the call of foot fault (which the rules allow for up to 3 seconds), in a situation where another observer in the group does not 2nd such call, I would suspect that the majority of the time the throw will have landed thus giving the thrower the "opportunity" to gain an advantage by calling an infraction against oneself (by seconding the foot fault). It is silly to think that one can proof "intent" and call "courtesy violations" in these situations.

A simple fix to this scenario would be simply add a caveat to the foot fault rule that does not allow a rethrow per a foot fault call if the throw lands OB. Analagous to not allowing a basketball player to get an additional free throw after a missed free throw in which a teammate has been called for a lane violation.

[Chuck Kennedy]

I'm not sure where in the rules it says that in the event you are called for a stance violation, you are expected to second it before the outcome of the shot is determined. Can you direct me to that passage?

It absolutely does not say that. However, the courtesy rule clearly indicates that refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, which of course includes calling infractions in a timely manner, can result in a warning. Delaying the second call on a foot fault would be little different from telling another player in the group the next thrower is about to play from behind the wrong marker and not actually alerting the next thrower about it before he throws.

I remember from the 1995 Am Worlds when Timmy Gill was leading and was unknowingly either carrying an unmarked or cracked disc for several holes. Another player in the group finally called the infraction which at the time was a 2-throw penalty per hole. Turns out that player who was in second quite few shots behind Timmy had seen the disc after maybe one hole and waited for several holes so Timmy would rack up the penalty. Timmy got all of the penalty throws added to his score but I believe the other player was penalized by the TD at least 2 throws once it became known he waited.

[Raymond W. Parrish]

However, the courtesy rule clearly indicates that refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, which of course includes calling infractions in a timely manner, can result in a warning.

Direct me to the passage where the rules expect a seconding call for a rule violation be made before the outcome of the shot on which the rule violation is being called.