Installing Baskets: tips and advice

[Matt Aubin]

OK it's go time down in Orange, getting ready to do it up. I do have a few questions for those in the know regarding basket installation:

1. Is it too cold to pour concrete? What temperature would be the cutoff, and for how long (do I need an above freezing overnight or longer)?

2. What type of concrete should I get? There seems to be about 3 or 4 different types at the ol' store.

3. On Innova's site they recommend pouring some dry concrete in the hole and mixing it, then a little more, mix, and such til you reach the top. They say it's faster and easier. I would think that this would put all sorts of schmutz in the concrete mix and make it weaker. Would you suggest this method or pre-mixing in a wheelbarrow?

[John Biscoe]

1. not too cold as long as you have water in liquid form- concrete setting up is a chemical reaction- it will even do it underwater.

2. quikrete with the rocks in it.

3. much easier to mix in the hole. some extra crap in the mix won't matter.

if the ground is not frozen and has some moisture to it you can even tamp dry 'crete into the hole and it will leech the moisture needed from the ground. i don't recommend doing that with poleholes where you have reasonable access to water though because occasionally you will get one where the center doesn't set up right. i have done it for fenceposts and poleholes with no ready water access many times.

also- make sure you seal the bottom of the sleeve somehow to keep the crete from creeping up into it- duct tape will work fine for that if nothing else is available.

[Matt Aubin]

awesome thanks!

[John Borelli]

Matt, we did not use liquid concrete at Devens. We simply poured half a bag of Quikcrete (40 lb bag I think) into the hole, tamped it, set the level with large rocks, and filled the rest with dirt (tamping and leveling as we went).

The moisture from the ground converts the dry Quikrete to cement. A few fence installers and previous basket installers told me this trick.

Note that we did not fill the entire hole with cement - only the bottom third. This makes it harder for vandals to wiggle the entire basket and pop it out. I'm sure a dedicated thief can still get them out, but it'll take a little more effort.

TM Dyer also made us some awesome locking collars with rebar attached to the bottom in an X pattern. This sets in the cement and also helps keep the whole assembly in the ground. TM is on the board, or I can give you his contact info if you are interested. Using this method also enables you to move baskets around easily since the poles rest in the sleeves.

Before TM got involved, we installed a few baskets using the "fill the entire hole with wet cement" method. It was hard because we had to carry in the water. After they dried, we thought we had been real smart, but when TM showed us just how easy it is to remove a fully-cemented basket in under 2 minutes, we didn't feel too smart any more!

The duct tape hint is also key. Do it.

[Tim Smith]

Matt, I used five gallon buckets to set the sleeves in, did all the cement work at home. Then just planted the bucket/sleeve in the ground.
Just one idea for you to consider.
If you need more details let me know.
I have a yellow tee-bird of yours from Waveny.

[Shawn Mullen]

bring a level and tape measure, make sure they are level and the right height.

[Matt Aubin]

thanks guys.... nice weather today, we'll see how it goes.

[Adam Goodman]

can't wait to play!

[Rob Walker]

At Devens, we used half of an 80 lb bag per hole. Like John said, at first we used wet cement and it was a lot of work carrying the cement and water around. Then T.M. just pulled the damn things out of the ground. Pouring it in dry was easier, faster, lighter and more secure.

[Kenji Cline]

Any heaving problems with using the dry concrete? How deep are your holes?

[John Biscoe]

for extra security using regular sleeves you can drive a couple of pieces of rebar into the ground at angles within the hole and then put the crete over them.

i'd say i use 2/3 of an 80# bag per sleeve.

[Matt Aubin]

all great tips thanks folks...


man the ground here is BRUTAL.... solid slate on most of the pin locations.

[T.M.DYER]

Hey Kenjiac,

the sleeves that I fabricated for the Devens course are three feet long with some half inch rebar welded through the bottom in an x sticking out 8 inches...

I have used dry crete in many situations with out access to water and have never had a problem with it not curing...

I feel that a lot of the anchors are not long/deep enough to get below the frost line around here...

If you are not down around the three ft mark with the cement you will be above the frost line and over time frost will drive the anchor up out of the ground...

What you are trying to do is put a big blob of concrete at the botttom of the anchor and then cover over that with soil...

Good luck Matt...digging in this area sucks...you need a rock bar to help pry up and break loose that shale that you are trying to dig through...

An upside to placing the anchors in rocky soil...they will be much harder to remove once they are set in place...

Thanks,
T.M.DYER

[Matt Aubin]

yeah T.M. I got a rock bar, it would be impossible without it.

I'm hoping I can get deep enough... it seems that right around 20-22" it just turns to solid rock.

I was worried about finding a water source and thought about using dry crete but then realized... there's a big river that runs through the middle of the course. duh.

"HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO LUG TAP WATER DOWN TO THE EDGE OF THIS RIVER??!?"

[Dave McHale]

"HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO LUG TAP WATER DOWN TO THE EDGE OF THIS RIVER??!?"

priceless

[Mike Zorovich]

that is funny

[Adam Goodman]

We are getting very close to installing baskets at 90 Acres/Vets in Bridgeport, CT. This course is in a decent area of Bridgeport, but we do expect vandalism and some thievery. Although I've been involved with before at Wolfe and Waveny, I'm still not entirely sure about the best method.

I like the dry cement in the hole technique, but have also used the 5-gallon bucket filled with cement technique. I also like the idea of using rebar, but am more concerned that someone can just cut the lock and slide the basket out of the sleeve. How do we fix that issue?

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Prayers.............. Our new course in Schenectady is not in the best part of town. Graffiti and vandalism can be seen in and around the park. But knock on wood, the baskets have been in the ground for 6+ months with no problems.

We locked the DisCatchers down per the Innova Installation Instructions. We added a couple pieces or rebar, shoved diagonally down thru the walls of the hole then mixed the concrete in a wheelbarrow then poured it in the hole.

[John Borelli]

Instead of padlocks, use locking tire bolts/nuts that you use on expensive auto tires. I forget what they are called. They cost more but it's worth it. We use them at Devens. No problems yet. You should also fill the keyhole with grease or petroleum jelly to help keep the dirt out.

[Adam Goodman]

I also like the idea of using rebar, but am more concerned that someone can just cut the lock and slide the basket out of the sleeve. How do we fix that issue?

Now I realize I meant to say...that all someone has to do is cut off the 2 screws above the lock to free the basket. I guess we could solder the locking collar onto the pole????

Also with the "burying lock" plan, I wonder if that would also work with ChainStars? In other words by burying the lock, am I making the basket shorter?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Yes, you need to tack weld the top of the locking collar to the pipe. Likewise, tack weld the top of the chain support to the top of the pole. Otherwise, thieves can just unbolt the components ad slide them off the nicely locked pole.

[Adam Goodman]

Any concerns about the fumes generated from welding galvanized metal? I heard it was super duper toxic.
Also is this generally done in the field after installation or pre assembly?

[Jack Nickel]

DO NOT weld galvanized metal!!! Very toxic.
You need to get a grinder/sander and take off the galvanized area first before welding. Then you can use a Cold galvanized paint to go over the welded area to protect. This is expensive stuff so if you want to save the $ just use a grey spray paint (metal) primer. I did this for a basket at Wick.

[John Borelli]

You can also just wack the bolt threads with a hammer to destroy the threads. No threads -- no unscrewing.

[Adam Goodman]

This all seems a bit wild and crazy. I don't understand why baskets aren't engineered better to resist theft. And I can't imagine that many people go to this extreme to install baskets.
So Chuck...weld or not to weld??? Still don't really know. Installation could turn out to be a huge pain. Probably makes sense to just hope they don't get stolen

[Chuck Kennedy]

The galvanized pipes from DGA have been tack welded in many installations for over 20 years without incident that I know of but I didn't do the welding. Maybe it was done properly by removing the galvanizing as mentioned above. However, messing up the threads can also work but not as well since the bolt in the top of the basket can be cut defeating the messed up threads.