qualifing?

[Kory Roy]

I realize to qualify for nefa finals you have to play 6 events, do they all have to be in the same division cause right now it says i played 5 but i played 1 maybe 2 events earlier in the year in am 1, would like to play finals so im just curious?

[Jeff Wiechowski]

6 in the same division.

[Jaxon Sheehy]

this thread freaked me out for a second-

it depends on your division- if you're am2 it's only 5 events

Division Minimum Number of Events
Pro Open 6
Pro Masters 5
Pro Grandmasters 5
Pro Women 4
Advanced 6
Intermediate 5
Advanced Masters 5
Advanced Women 4
Intermediate Women 4
Recreational 4

phew... still have a chance here!

[Sean Curcio]

this thread freaked me out for a second-

it depends on your division- if you're am2 it's only 5 events

Division Minimum Number of Events
Pro Open 6
Pro Masters 5
Pro Grandmasters 5
Pro Women 4
Advanced 6
Intermediate 5
Advanced Masters 5
Advanced Women 4
Intermediate Women 4
Recreational 4

phew... still have a chance here!

Don't worry Jaxon, the charter seems to have been thrown out the window for this year. These numbers do not apply, refer to last years charter.

[Paul Sullivan]

Another student from the Tully school of tact? Come on now Sean, "thrown out the window" sounds a little harsh(unless your one of the guys on the outside looking in). I can almost feel your pain..... It really was an honest mistake that amazingly nobody caught until the 11th hour.

[Sandy Redd]

Thank you sully.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=42.062002,-71.165448

[Jaxon Sheehy]

i came up short in the end- but it wasn't because of a points series charter, or a NEFA BOD- i just didn't play that well.

granted, i would have preferred knowing about the 72 player thing because you can see i posted a few times trying to figure out if i was going to make it- i was checking in everyday the whole last month trying to figure out if i could make it, looking at last year's threads- but that's all water under the bridge. boo hoo, right?

now i'm left with the decision for next year- play all AM2 to try to get into finals, or move up to AM1 and maybe learn more playing with better players... i'll probably do some kind of mix- where all my non NEFA events i'll move up. we'll see i guess.

[Titan Bariloni]

now i'm left with the decision for next year- play all AM2 to try to get into finals, or move up to AM1 and maybe learn more playing with better players... i'll probably do some kind of mix- where all my non NEFA events i'll move up. we'll see i guess.

This is a problem I see that could undermine the competitive nature of the series.

With the added pressure of Finals being limited in the years to come(prediction of filled finals events here on out with field sizes 90 or lower..side note could finals be 40 people if TD so desires? I am sure Charter will be adjusted to determine field size at Finals anyways so I doubt that would ever happen..also is the one day for Finals flexible to change in the future)

Players may just take the "easiest road" to Finals thus creating further "sandbagging" issues
Would it be feasible to adjust Charter to allow players to play in multiple divisions when determining "events for qualification"

or would it be easier to just have nefa ratings however they may be achieved?

I am sure field size will be announced prior to after the end of season in the future so players can better examine there game plan for Finals invite

The archived Finals area of the board will also be good for players who are new to Nefa to find info on how the process works. Will the past Finals still be available to view all season?

Jaxon not trying to throw ya into the mix on the Finals BS...a question are you a first year member of Nefa? If so it seems you tried to prepare a game plan to get to Finals on your own based on the information that was available. I urge Nefa to consider informing members via whatever method would be most efficient who may not know what the deal is. Rather the play play, play some more then we will let ya know method

not an attack on anyone just suggestions from a concerned nefa member

Jaxon also would love to chat about your website sometime..shoot me a pm with your number

[Jeff Wiechowski]

This is a problem I see that could undermine the competitive nature of the series.

With the added pressure of Finals being limited in the years to come(prediction of filled finals events here on out with field sizes 90 or lower..side note could finals be 40 people if TD so desires? I am sure Charter will be adjusted to determine field size at Finals anyways so I doubt that would ever happen..also is the one day for Finals flexible to change in the future)

Expect a 90 player minimum at Finals going forward.
NY has 2014 and I would support a 2-day Finals. J-27 on Saturday with a players party then 18/18 on Sunday.

Would it be feasible to adjust Charter to allow players to play in multiple divisions when determining "events for qualification"

Please elaborate on this idea. Sounds like a divisional-shuffle nightmare for the guy who has to manage the invite lists.

I am sure field size will be announced prior to after the end of season in the future so players can better examine there game plan for Finals invite.

Agreed.

The archived Finals area of the board will also be good for players who are new to Nefa to find info on how the process works. Will the past Finals still be available to view all season?

I had archived and hidden last years' Finals threads until a month prior to this years' Finals but there no reason they can't stay visible all year. Unfortunately, some of the "process" that new members would be reading(Finals bologna thread) might not be too encouraging.

Jaxon not trying to throw ya into the mix on the Finals BS...a question are you a first year member of Nefa? If so it seems you tried to prepare a game plan to get to Finals on your own based on the information that was available. I urge Nefa to consider informing members via whatever method would be most efficient who may not know what the deal is.Rather the play play, play some more then we will let ya know method

not an attack on anyone just suggestions from a concerned nefa member

When I see two statements(red and blue) like these back-2-back it always throw me off. The way i read it, they sound like a total contradiction. And you do it alot.

[Gary Cyr]

NY has 2014 and I would support a 2-day Finals. J-27 on Saturday with a players party then 18/18 on Sunday.

"Supporting" a 2-day finals, and actually pulling one off that leaves most players feeling fulfilled are 2 completely different things.

Are finals better as match play? I can probably agree with that statement in theory.

The reality always was that many players couldn’t commit to an entire weekend. Remember that this is still a hobby. People work, have families, homes, other hobbies, and many other commitments that must be attended to on weekends. This fact always caused more players from farther down the qualifying list to make it into the finals as others above them couldn’t attend. More lower qualified players equals more watered down matches.

It’s your first Finals experience and you are excited!! You drive 150 miles, buy lunches and dinners, and pay for a hotel. The first day didn’t produce any victories but tomorrow is another day. Sunday rolls around, you get to the course and your morning opponent has decided to head back on their 100 mile drive with their carpool mate because you’re all in the losers bracket and have nothing to play for. Heading out to play a round with another Finals member who got stiffed you figure you can have one more match in the afternoon. Afternoon rolls around and your opponent is ready to play but wait there’s a problem. He came in a carpool with 2 other guys that are all out of it. They want to get moving on their 140 mile drive. “Sorry but my ride wants to go”

It’s the reality of the format. It happened for years. That’s why we have one day stroke play. You can’t stop players from leaving.

[Karl Molitoris]

1.
If the consensus is to have stroke play for the finals:

We all know how to do this.

2.
If the consensus is to have match play for the finals:

Try a "round-robin" format. This is where everyone plays a 9-hole match with everyone else. 2 days and 36 holes each day equals 8 matches. Person with the best "score" wins, etc. (no "sudden death" for any 1 match...an individual match CAN end in a tie)...but overall winner would have to be "played off" if 2 end up on top after their 8 matches.

The only fly in the ointment would be you'd either:
a. Have to have only the top 8 make the finals, or
b. "Flight" any 1 division (using seedings, etc.)

...with an outside shot at having five 9-hole matches per day IFFFFFFFFF you sorry sacks can get up early enough to start before 9am or so!

In theory, have 9 hole matches, 8 matches, and 8 players in a section. Sort of like a "9-8-8" plan .

Karl

[Matt Aubin]

I love match play as a format, but if we play stroke play allllllll year, finish it that way.

[Matt Stroika]

1.
If the consensus is to have stroke play for the finals:

We all know how to do this.

2.
If the consensus is to have match play for the finals:

Try a "round-robin" format. This is where everyone plays a 9-hole match with everyone else. 2 days and 36 holes each day equals 8 matches. Person with the best "score" wins, etc. (no "sudden death" for any 1 match...an individual match CAN end in a tie)...but overall winner would have to be "played off" if 2 end up on top after their 8 matches.

The only fly in the ointment would be you'd either:
a. Have to have only the top 8 make the finals, or
b. "Flight" any 1 division (using seedings, etc.)

...with an outside shot at having five 9-hole matches per day IFFFFFFFFF you sorry sacks can get up early enough to start before 9am or so!

In theory, have 9 hole matches, 8 matches, and 8 players in a section. Sort of like a "9-8-8" plan .

Karl

I was going to tout the 9 hole matches again as well. Not as fun to have it done in one day but it is possible.

How do you get people to stay for the end matches? Payout all positions and if you DNF, you don't get paid. If there is enough sponsorship, most people wont want to leave $50+ behind even if they did lose their first match. Done.

[Gary Cyr]

1.
If the consensus is to have stroke play for the finals:

We all know how to do this.

2.
If the consensus is to have match play for the finals:

Try a "round-robin" format. This is where everyone plays a 9-hole match with everyone else. 2 days and 36 holes each day equals 8 matches. Person with the best "score" wins, etc. (no "sudden death" for any 1 match...an individual match CAN end in a tie)...but overall winner would have to be "played off" if 2 end up on top after their 8 matches.

The only fly in the ointment would be you'd either:
a. Have to have only the top 8 make the finals, or
b. "Flight" any 1 division (using seedings, etc.)

...with an outside shot at having five 9-hole matches per day IFFFFFFFFF you sorry sacks can get up early enough to start before 9am or so!

In theory, have 9 hole matches, 8 matches, and 8 players in a section. Sort of like a "9-8-8" plan .

Karl

I was going to tout the 9 hole matches again as well. Not as fun to have it done in one day but it is possible.

How do you get people to stay for the end matches? Payout all positions and if you DNF, you don't get paid. If there is enough sponsorship, most people wont want to leave $50+ behind even if they did lose their first match. Done.

Slippery slope. What about the competitor that has to withdraw due to injury? I think all would agree that player should get paid, even if it's last place. You will never be able to say someone quit or withdrew due to injury.

Either way you will end up with players playing but not really "playing" in order to get their money. The reality is that that payout differential at the bottom is very small. People might stay for the money but they won't really play hard because the difference between last cash and 2nd to last cash is not enough to make a difference. On the flip side paying everybody takes even more money away from the top finishes. I'm not saying I'm opposed to your suggestion of paying everyone. I'm just saying the money pool isn't big enough to motivate true competition through the entire field for the whole weekend.

[Matt Stroika]

Make the pot bigger by eliminating the end of the year payout.

Cant make it or need to drop due to injury? Sorry, your money goes back to the pot and is distributed to those that finish. Did not show is the same as did not finish. DFL gets paid but everyone else gets nothing.

[Josh Connell]

History lesson on the evolution of the NEFA points final...

2000 was the first year that it was done, and it was a bit of a late season "hey, let's do a final for the points series" thing. I think it was a one-day event at Buffumville with the top 8 or 4 in any NEFA divisions with enough qualifiers (I believe that amounted to Open, Advanced, Women, and Masters).

In 2001, it became a two-day event, held at Buffumville, with the larger divisions having 16 player brackets and the smaller divisions having 8 or 4, all with losers brackets played out all the way. Starts were staggered so all the "championship" matches took place Sunday afternoon. It paid out to all participants. Some of the players playing out for 13th and 15th place for the difference of a couple bucks were grumbling afterward.

2002, it was a two-day event at Barre Falls. The first day was a round-robin, with players matched up in pools of four based on the final season standings. Only divisions with more than 8 qualifiers played the round-robin day. From the round robin results, 8 player brackets were established and played out in three rounds on Sunday. The round-robin format was used to ensure all participating players got at least two rounds (in most cases three) for traveling to the course. Champions played up to 6 rounds on the weekend.

In 2003, the same round robin format was used, only the finals were split into two weekends. The round-robin weekend was loose enough that pools could complete their matches at their leisure (and even at the course of their choosing, although Buffumville was the scheduled venue) as long as the results were reported by the end of the weekend. Those that made it through the round-robin played a one-day 8 player bracket at Barre Falls. That format was deemed too cumbersome and took too long (two weekends of commitment).

So in 2004, we returned to the straight 2-day, 16-person brackets like in 2001. This time, the event was at Wickham Park. This was the event that really saw the problem of people skipping out on the losers' bracket matches in droves.

In 2005, it was also the 2-day, 16-person brackets at Dragan Field. Instead of a losers' bracket, we offered a second-chance stroke play tournament on Sunday to determine places 5 through wherever, open to anyone eliminated in a match on Saturday. This offered a minimum of three competitive rounds for all attendees (at least one match-play round and two stroke play rounds). Some but not all players took advantage.

It was after that when it was decided to make the NEFA Finals a stroke-play event so as to guarantee all participants two rounds with no possibility of elimination or sitting out a round with a bye, etc. This was also when the standings payout was begun since without the match-play seeding, rank in the standings was rendered meaningless (except for waitlist purposes).

I post all that to show that it's not as though the NEFA Finals hasn't gone through a ton of incarnations over the years. Rarely has it ever been the same exact event from one year to the next. It was match play for a few years and it never went off without a complaint or an issue that people felt compelled to address the following year. Just like since it has gone to stroke play, the event has varied from year to year based on the hosts and the decisions of the points committee. In fact, the whole reason that the state-to-state rotation was started was so that each year could be unique in its own way, with the host state rep and crew making the decisions that shaped the event itself. It wasn't supposed to be a cookie-cutter event that was always exactly like it was the year before. NEFA has many flavors, and the Finals was supposed to be a way to showcase them all. Apparently, given what I've read here, that sentiment has changed.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

As usual, another GREAT NEFA history lesson from Josh.............

[Matt Stroika]

As usual, another GREAT NEFA history lesson from Josh.............

Josh for NEFA president. I know he would never do it but he would do a great job.

[Josh Connell]

Josh for NEFA president. I know he would never do it but he would do a great job.

Appreciate the vote of confidence. And you're damn right, I'd never do it.

[Jaxon Sheehy]

Jaxon not trying to throw ya into the mix on the Finals BS...a question are you a first year member of Nefa? If so it seems you tried to prepare a game plan to get to Finals on your own based on the information that was available. I urge Nefa to consider informing members via whatever method would be most efficient who may not know what the deal is. Rather the play play, play some more then we will let ya know method

not an attack on anyone just suggestions from a concerned nefa member

yeah, first year NEFA- third year playing DG
my WISH would be for finals to be planned and posted in may or june
each year- touted as a "Super Bowl" event for NEFA
something impossible to ignore, "COME ONE COME ALL!!!" type of thing
i know that seems like a lot of prep- but if i knew ahead of time:

-qualified players would play for free (hard to guarantee fiscally, but it'd REALLY boost interest from a player perspective, getting the chance to EARN a tournament)
-winner crowned the champ regardless of season standings
-what course location
-some possible epic prizes
-maybe an extra hole set up on the course as a wild card- super long par 5 or something
-how awesome it would be etc...

if i knew these things ahead of time, i'd really gun for it, and try hard to make it, and scrape for every last point
but i think not knowing, i'd be more apt to let things slide thinking that "it's just one more tournament"

these are just thoughts- and they're obviously filtered through a person playing AM2 and not making the cut, so i'm not the majority by any means...

it's cool to have a points series though- it leaves all these doors open for special events and/or prizes to gun for, since everyone is getting POINTS
for example-
an end of year award "most improved"
an end of year award "most total points"
an end of year award "most events"
-maybe even a bonus category where you tack on 10 or 20 points for setting a course record
-or an extra 10 or 20 points for getting a NEFA tournament ace
that'd be sweet too...

either way, it's all in the prep, not as much the brainstorming
you'd need not only a "charter" or whatever
you'd need a flyer, and a rules guide- for people to reference throughout the year
as it is now, there is a simple paragraph on the "Points Series" link- helpful, but not motivating

ok, that's enough for now.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

yeah, first year NEFA- third year playing DG
my WISH would be for finals to be planned and posted in may or june - Good idea, but the state rep turnover will be a stumbling block.
each year- touted as a "Super Bowl" event for NEFA
something impossible to ignore, "COME ONE COME ALL!!!" type of thing
i know that seems like a lot of prep- but if i knew ahead of time:

-qualified players would play for free (hard to guarantee fiscally, but it'd REALLY boost interest from a player perspective, getting the chance to EARN a tournament) Unless the sponsors pony up early, there's no way of knowing what can be covered in regards to entry fees. Also takes time to gather food providers, trophies, etc. The CFR discs idea is a GREAT one if TDs buy into it.
-winner crowned the champ regardless of season standings. Regular season division winners will be enshrined on a plaque at Maple Hill Sap house. Finals Champ gets a unique trophy(from what i saw last year and what i've heard rumored this year).
-what course location Dependant on state rep, course availability, etc. See 2012 Rhode Island.
-some possible epic prizes
-maybe an extra hole set up on the course as a wild card- super long par 5 or something. Also dependant on state rep and course availability.
-how awesome it would be etc...

if i knew these things ahead of time, i'd really gun for it, and try hard to make it, and scrape for every last point
but i think not knowing, i'd be more apt to let things slide thinking that "it's just one more tournament"

these are just thoughts- and they're obviously filtered through a person playing AM2 and not making the cut, so i'm not the majority by any means... understood, but looking at it thru the TDs eyes is totally different.

it's cool to have a points series though- it leaves all these doors open for special events and/or prizes to gun for, since everyone is getting POINTS
for example-
an end of year award "most improved" from what previous position?
an end of year award "most total points" Tough to do beacuse some divisions include more events in the points totals.
an end of year award "most events" I like this.
-maybe even a bonus category where you tack on 10 or 20 points for setting a course record
-or an extra 10 or 20 points for getting a NEFA tournament ace. Both these ideas are worth consideration.
that'd be sweet too...

either way, it's all in the prep, not as much the brainstorming
you'd need not only a "charter" or whatever
you'd need a flyer, and a rules guide- for people to reference throughout the year
as it is now, there is a simple paragraph on the "Points Series" link- helpful, but not motivating

ok, that's enough for now.

A ton of good ideas here, Jaxon. But each of them presents the State Rep with more responsibilites. My personal opinion is that the State Representative should be required to appoint a team of dedicated individuals to help with all the specific areas of Finals....... and do it EARLY in the year so the ball is rolling ASAP.

[Kyle Stevens]

I agree with you 100% Jeff. Everything should be done and set in stone by the end of July at the latest, and the rep in charge of finals should have a solid core of dedicated, trustworthy persons at their disposal.
I wish some of these ideas had started to roll out earlier in the year.

[Jaxon Sheehy]

A ton of good ideas here, Jaxon. But each of them presents the State Rep with more responsibilites. My personal opinion is that the State Representative should be required to appoint a team of dedicated individuals to help with all the specific areas of Finals....... and do it EARLY in the year so the ball is rolling ASAP.

that's true- one state per year is in charge right? so they could each be setting the bar and looking to host the best finals each year- provides good motivation to make it special.