Practice Shot or 2-Stroke Penalty??

[Shaun LaForce]

So at West T this weekend we had a situation come up on hole 16(peninsula hole).

2nd round, I threw a hyzer shot out over the water with a Z Force. We get up to the green, look around and dont see it anywhere. I look out off the waters edge and see a Force about 10 feet out. I assume it is mine so I proceed to go back and play it from where we thought it was last in.

After someone in the group retrieved it from the water, I realize it was not my disc.

What do we do?

We give a little more search and find my disc on land, in the rough. I then played out this lie and took that extra shot as a practice throw.

After talking with multiple people afterwards, as well as more people today, I cant seem to get a straight answer.

Did I play it correctly or should it have been a 2 stroke penalty for playing someone elses lie?

[Chuck Kennedy]

The group apparently agreed with your ruling that your disc had gone OB. So once you played it that way, it doesn't matter if you find out it was not OB or lost. You continue playing from there with the 1-throw penalty. If you then incorrectly play from the original disc that you found, you complete the hole from there and get a 2-throw penalty for playing the wrong lie and count all of the throws you made prior to that including the 1-throw OB penalty.

[Shaun LaForce]

Wow. Thanks Chuck.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Yeah, you can really get penalized deliberately playing from the wrong lie. It's confusing because it would seem that if you actually find your disc, after making a throw assuming something else happened to it, that playing from the found disc would be the right thing to do. The Rules Committee has gone thru a variety of alternatives for handling these "later found" and "other player's lie" scenarios and hasn't come up with a better way of handling it and penalizing it other than the current rules.

[Josh Connell]

The group apparently agreed with your ruling that your disc had gone OB. So once you played it that way, it doesn't matter if you find out it was not OB or lost. You continue playing from there with the 1-throw penalty. If you then incorrectly play from the original disc that you found, you complete the hole from there and get a 2-throw penalty for playing the wrong lie and count all of the throws you made prior to that including the 1-throw OB penalty.

Disagree.

The rule doesn't address playing the "wrong lie", it's about playing "another player's lie". So if the disc in the water doesn't belong to anyone in the group and isn't really actively in play (it could have been there for weeks for all you know), how is it "another player's" lie? Even if it belonged to another player in the tournament, unless it's the disc currently in play for him/her, it's not really a lie, is it? He/she has abandoned the lie and moved on in one way or another (played it as OB and failed to retrieve, declared it lost, declared an optional re-throw, etc...take your pick). I think they did it correctly by declaring the shot from the original disc a practice throw and playing out the hole from the correct disc.

Lesson being, if the disc is retrievable, it's better to retrieve it and verify its identity before proceeding to throw so that this sort of situation can be avoided.

[Chuck Kennedy]

You can disagree but it's not correct. Once the group makes the determination of what happened to the player's throw, that becomes the live lie and continuation for the hole. They made the decision based on OB rule 803.09A: The actual disc was not officially found (yet) but presumed to have landed OB. So that was the call versus being lost. Once the player proceeds under the ruling, the previous lie/disc is abandoned for the purposes of completing the hole.

When a player plays from behind a disc on the fairway that is not their current lie, it's "another player's lie" by default IF the player proceeds to complete the hole from there. It could be called a Practice throw if the player immediately realized their mistake before making another throw and went back to complete the hole from the throw sequence the group thought was correct.

[Josh Connell]

You can disagree but it's not correct. Once the group makes the determination of what happened to the player's throw, that becomes the live lie and continuation for the hole. They made the decision based on OB rule 803.09A: The actual disc was not officially found (yet) but presumed to have landed OB. So that was the call versus being lost. Once the player proceeds under the ruling, the previous lie/disc is abandoned for the purposes of completing the hole.

When a player plays from behind a disc on the fairway that is not their current lie, it's "another player's lie" by default IF the player proceeds to complete the hole from there. It could be called a Practice throw if the player immediately realized their mistake before making another throw and went back to complete the hole from the throw sequence the group thought was correct.

Incorrect according to who, Chuck? You? Or is there an actual clarification from the rules committee that you can point me to?

Years ago, I had the same situation occur to me (a disc in water the same color as mine in the general area where my disc went...my disc ended up being in some long grass just past the water), and I played it the way Shaun did as well as provisionally from the first incorrectly identified lie. The TD upheld the practice throw ruling after the round. Sent the situation off to the rules committee just to see what they'd say, and again, the response I saw upheld the practice throw ruling as valid. A random disc on the fairway/in the water/in a tree does not automatically equate to "another player's lie" by default. To be a lie belonging to another player, the disc has to be in play for another player.

If such a disc is supposed to be considered another player's lie by default, perhaps they should change the term in the rule to say "incorrect" or "wrong" lie instead of "another player's".


If you want to argue that he should have continued from the OB lie because he abandoned his true lie, akin to declaring a disc lost and then finding it after the fact, I can go with that, I suppose. But no way do I agree with tacking on the 2-throw penalty per 803.10 on top of that.

[Chuck Kennedy]

No interpretation required. The sequence is straight out of the rulebook based on what he stated. Teed off. First decision was his throw was OB. He played it that way and now lies three. Finds original disc. Plays from there (rather than continuing) and completes the hole. That's not a practice throw once he makes more than one throw and holes out. 2-shot penalty. There's no grey area or interpretation involved.

[Josh Connell]

No interpretation required. The sequence is straight out of the rulebook based on what he stated. Teed off. First decision was his throw was OB. He played it that way and now lies three. Finds original disc. Plays from there (rather than continuing) and completes the hole. That's not a practice throw once he makes more than one throw and holes out. 2-shot penalty. There's no grey area or interpretation involved.

What are talking about and could you cite what rule you're getting the 2-shot penalty from?

Tee shot (a)
Throw from what he believes is his OB lie (b)
Finds original tee shot and throws from there (c)
Holes out (d)

He's calling throw "b" a practice throw (an extra throw that does not advance the lie).

So his score is four. (a + c + d + practice throw penalty = 4) No two-throw penalty applicable that I can see.

[Chuck Kennedy]

He's calling throw "b" a practice throw (an extra throw that does not advance the lie).

He can't do that in the same way a player cannot play from their disc if it's found just after the 3 minute search is up and it was declared lost.

[Josh Connell]

He's calling throw "b" a practice throw (an extra throw that does not advance the lie).

He can't do that in the same way a player cannot play from their disc if it's found just after the 3 minute search is up and it was declared lost.

Fine. Already said I can go with that. Still don't know where your 2-shot penalty is coming from.

[Chuck Kennedy]

If a player abandons their current lie, starts playing from another location and "holes out" you have two options. Either the player played from another player's lie and gets the 2-throw penalty or the player has inadvertently not completed the hole and gets a 2-throw penalty per 803.13 A(2) with the throws from their 'later found disc' until holing out all counted as practice throws. Six of one, half dozen of the other?

[Josh Connell]

If a player abandons their current lie, starts playing from another location and "holes out" you have two options. Either the player played from another player's lie and gets the 2-throw penalty or the player has inadvertently not completed the hole and gets a 2-throw penalty per 803.13 A(2) with the throws from their 'later found disc' until holing out all counted as practice throws. Six of one, half dozen of the other?

I guess the difference in opinion here is what you're calling "abandoning" their lie. I don't think one can legally play a lie that doesn't really exist. It amounts to picking a random spot and deciding to throw from there. Sounds like the definition of a practice throw.

The closest applicable rule, IMO, is 801.04 B (1). If a player throws from the wrong tee, realizes it before he makes a subsequent shot, he is supposed to go to the correct tee and re-start from there while counting the first throw as a practice throw. Same principle applies here. Player incorrectly marks his lie in one place, makes a throw, realizes his error before making a subsequent throw, and goes back to the correct disc/lie and plays out from there, counting the throw from the incorrect lie as a practice throw.

[Matt Stroika]

Interesting read. I believe that Steady Ed would have agreed with Josh. The 'spirit of the game ruling' would not unduly punish a player.

[Chuck Kennedy]

I'm amazed that the concept of abandoning your lie is not cyrstal clear here. Once play proceeds according to the rules, you cannot abandon that play sequence even if a mistake was discovered later. If you find your disc after it's declared lost whether you've made the next throw or not, you still play it as lost plus 1-throw penalty as if it were lost. Once a disc is declared OB, the player marks and plays their next throw. If their disc is found later and was actually inbounds it doesn't matter. The declaration was made and the player is just happy their disc was found. If you play from another player's lie, you continue play from there even if you later find your original disc and could have played from there. In no case, do you ever play from the disc that was later found inbounds after a declaration has been made and play has continued.

I checked and in the 1982 rules, mostly if not all written by Steady Ed, not only was it a 2-throw penalty for playing the wrong disc but it was a 2-shot penalty for every throw made after playing from that wrong disc lie on that hole...

[Josh Connell]

If the concept was "crystal clear", it would be crystallized by being defined in the rule book. Until then, I don't think anything is crystal clear.

The 1982 rules also call it "Playing the Wrong Disc" rather than "Playing from Another Player's Lie". There's a pretty big distinction between those two phrases, IMO.

[Chuck Kennedy]

What is not crystal clear in the rules regarding abandoning your current lie other than using the words "abandoning" in the rules? The rules are consistent everywhere that once a ruling has been made, you play on based on that and that's how you complete the hole. If you abandon that sequence or for that matter any time you do it on a hole, then it's a 2-throw penalty whether you call it playing another player's lie or not completing the hole properly. You've tried to confuse what was clear in my first post based on the rules.

Note: The only time you get a reprieve from a penalty is if you declared your disc lost and later find out someone picked up your disc. Even then, you don't go back to replay the hole from where it was but simply get 2 throws dropped from your score on the hole.

[Josh Connell]

What is not crystal clear in the rules regarding abandoning your current lie other than using the words "abandoning" in the rules? The rules are consistent everywhere that once a ruling has been made, you play on based on that and that's how you complete the hole. If you abandon that sequence or for that matter any time you do it on a hole, then it's a 2-throw penalty whether you call it playing another player's lie or not completing the hole properly. You've tried to confuse what was clear in my first post based on the rules.

So what exactly is a practice throw for, then? If I walk up, mark a random spot on the fairway, and throw from it, have I "abandoned" my true lie or have I simply made a practice throw?

There's a specificity to playing from another player's lie. There's specificity to declaring a disc lost (because there's a clock involved in "abandoning" the lost disc). There's no specificity to mistakenly marking a lie in the wrong place and making a single throw from it, except in the form of a practice throw. Again, I'll point out 801.04B(2) which differentiates between making one throw from the wrong tee (and picking it up to go to the correct tee) and making multiple throws in a sequence after starting from the wrong tee (count them all and add 2 strokes for the misplay).

The way the original question played out was, IMO, a perfectly valid and rules-acceptable way to proceed. I will concede, however, that it isn't necessarily the only way the scenario could have been played out in accordance with the rules. But I'll stick by my stance that 803.10 isn't really in play in this situation.

The fact that it could have played out two different ways and both ways arguably have backing in the rule book tells me there's nothing crystal clear about the situation.

[Chuck Kennedy]

When a player makes a throw from their correct lie, it is not a practice throw and cannot later be declared as such. Read the definition of a practice throw. Once a lost, OB or even 2-meter ruling is made, the player's lie is set and a throw made from there cannot be a practice throw.

[Drew Smith]

1) I thought a throw can only be " practice" if you don't have a disc in play (i.e., you aren't currently playing a hole)?

2) If you "abandon" your current lie and shoot from a different spot, could you technically call that a massive foot fault and re-shoot *snicker* ?

3) Shaun - your scenario kind of came up at Beauty Hill on hole 12 (long 90 degree corner hole before the field). OB on right, Phil V. shoots and his disc appears to kick right OOB. I go up and see he's WAY OOB and he re-tees. I then realize that the disc I declared OOB was not his. Thankfully, his disc was OOB (by only a couple inches, though), so the play was correct. But if it had been in-bounds, we wondered what the ruling would have been. Daniel M. correctly determined that Phil would have still taken the strokes as played, and I would have been a big(ger) jerk for missing the call. We debated if his 2nd tee shot could technically be considered a "provisional", but no because it wasn't declared that way.

[Titan Bariloni]

in that situation to speed up the game..could he just call a provisional..? retrieve the disc..? or wouldn't that be illegal? if its not..then get the disc...find out if it is his...if not then continue the search for players disc..? would the clock be reset to look for the other shot..?

another question how long do you have after throwing a provisional to throw the next sequence of shots...? after getting to lie 30 seconds..?

I see this

Player throws
Player looks for disc
clock is eventually called
3 minutes goes by
player finds disc just before clock in water,tree(2meter and cant read disc,nor technically throw anything up to get it down,I would think it would be speed of play to climb and or distraction to another card being legit to the rule) ect ect
Group agrees it is players disc
Player calls provisional
Player throws
Disc is retrieved and then discovered not players disc
Player attempts to find disc
Group calls clock
just before clock player/group finds disc
player sets up for original throw after placing mini down..30 secs starts

wow that is confusing...! could happen

and what if ya cant find your disc...and ya just say oh yeah that disc out there looks similar to mine(and it is sometimes tough to tell) group agrees and player gains advantage by not having to retee and take stroke/distance

just saying it could happen

[Mike Laterreur]

I agree with Matt that this is an interesting read. Would it be worth the consideration of the rules commitee to define "anpther player's lie" vs the possibility of "a disc that may be in the area of play"? As per Josh's example that the disc may be in water for weeks.

[jim tufts]

I just read all this and my brain imploded. I am now a vegetable.

[Dave White]

Your in a tournament at Maple Hill playing the long pin on hole #1.
There is 3 in your group and it very foggy out and you have never played or seen hole #1
You tee off throwing a white Starfire off to the left, the others in the group drive goes right.
You split up to look for you disc
your down the left side of the pond searching for your disc slowly working your way towards the pin, being so foggy you not sure how far you have been walking.
The others in your group found and threw there disc and are now waiting at the basket
one of them threw a white starfire and is parked next to the basket
as you walk to the Basket the guys in your group are talking near the wall.
You are SURPRISED to see the white starfire next to the basket, in your exciment you go over and drop in your putt
Thinking you just Deuced the Hole , you pick up the starfire and realize it not yours .
You played the wrong disc .
how do you score the hole?
The Drive, the Putt and a 2 stroke penalty for a 4 ?
Dave

[Chuck Kennedy]

Yep. Unless it appears to the group you were doing it deliberately (i.e. cheating).

[Matt Grayum]

Your in a tournament at Maple Hill playing the long pin on hole #1.
There is 3 in your group and it very foggy out and you have never played or seen hole #1
You tee off throwing a white Starfire off to the left, the others in the group drive goes right.
You split up to look for you disc
your down the left side of the pond searching for your disc slowly working your way towards the pin, being so foggy you not sure how far you have been walking.
The others in your group found and threw there disc and are now waiting at the basket
one of them threw a white starfire and is parked next to the basket
as you walk to the Basket the guys in your group are talking near the wall.
You are SURPRISED to see the white starfire next to the basket, in your exciment you go over and drop in your putt
Thinking you just Deuced the Hole , you pick up the starfire and realize it not yours .
You played the wrong disc .
how do you score the hole?
The Drive, the Putt and a 2 stroke penalty for a 4 ?
Dave

That's the easiest 4 you'll ever get on that hole....ha