Snow altering putting conditions

[Arty Graustein]

I think I know the answer and certainly can look it up in the PDGA rulebook, but I think I would rather hear Chuck's take on it and then see if Josh (edit. Vegan Ray) agrees (or disagrees and then explain why it is a stupid rule in a perfectly reasonable and logic equated fashion). Okay all kidding aside here is the scenario that happened last weekend. Derek was putting out on hole 4 at Flatrock during the snowstorm. The weight of the snow caused the foliage on the pine tree nearby to hang down low enough in such a way that it made the putting line to the basket more difficult. He asked us if it would be okay to shake the snow debris off the limbs before putting so the branches would go back to their normal position and thus improving his putting chances greatly. We said no. He managed and made the putt anyway. For the record, it was blocking my putt as well causing me to straddle putt to make mine. My question is, is it legal or not to shake the snow debris off branches that are in front of you if they are low enough to block a basket (within the circle) or to take it a step further what if the basket is covered by foliage covered in snow so much that it makes putting at it impossible? Sorry if this has been brought up before.

[Chuck Kennedy]

No deliberate removal of the snow under current rules. In the old rules, you might have been able to remove the snow under the rule where you could move things in front of your lie that became a factor during the round. However, the current rules removed that option other than moving people or their equipment (bags, carts, vehicles) out of the way that are in front of your lie.

If players or the TD see the snow accumulation before the round starts, there's no problem shaking it off then since you are returning the course to it's "more normal" setup before the round starts.

[Arty Graustein]

Okay so we played it right which is good, but what about the taking it a bit further scenario? What if a basket gets engulfed enough by snow thickened foliage that it deems it impossible to hole out. Yes I realize this is highly unlikely, but should it come up what are our choices?

[Matt DeAngelis]

Okay so we played it right which is good, but what about the taking it a bit further scenario? What if a basket gets engulfed enough by snow thickened foliage that it deems it impossible to hole out. Yes I realize this is highly unlikely, but should it come up what are our choices?

The person with the worst score on the card should take one for the team and drive a disc right into said foliage, freeing up the snow for the rest of the players.

[Arty Graustein]

Ha! All depends who's further out on the shot though, right Matt? May not necessarily be the worst score on the card.

[Chuck Kennedy]

If the basket gets engulfed, I would have players mark all of their lies. Take a photo if possible of what it looked like (even though photo evidence isn't allowed yet). Have players each call their next putts provisionals. Then everyone putts out without disrupting the branches any more than necessary. Then, clear all the snow off the branches letting them rise. Then, replay the putts. Let the TD decide if the snow weighing the branches into the basket constituted a situation where clearing the snow was justified under the Fairness rule 803.01F relating to "abnormal" accumulation of "casual water" even though snow and ice have been declared "not casual water" in the Q&As.

[Mike Dussault]

If the basket gets engulfed, I would have players mark all of their lies. Take a photo if possible of what it looked like (even though photo evidence isn't allowed yet). Have players each call their next putts provisionals. Then everyone putts out without disrupting the branches any more than necessary. Then, clear all the snow off the branches letting them rise. Then, replay the putts. Let the TD decide if the snow weighing the branches into the basket constituted a situation where clearing the snow was justified under the Fairness rule 803.01F relating to "abnormal" accumulation of "casual water" even though snow and ice have been declared "not casual water" in the Q&As.

...and then the next group should?

They just get the advantage of the previous groups efforts?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Not a problem. I think a fundamental expectation is that course elements will be repaired, cleaned or salted so they are in their best or normal condition before the round starts. Likewise, if they get out of whack during the round, it's okay to return them to their standard condition if possible which might be sweeping a tee, scooping water out of a dirt tee, adjusting the chains on the basket or returning a portable basket upright that fell over after the previous group went thru.

In the case of snowy drooping limbs, I think part of the judgment would be if the limbs are right in the basket or just blocking view from one side. I'd have less problem removing the snow if they were actually in the basket. However, incidental contact is going to knock the snow off anyway during the round in the same way the first group to play a hole may be the first to add tracks to a new snowfall. As the round progresses, players are more likely to take a lost disc penalty as the tracks accumulate.

[Raymond W. Parrish]

I hope I'm not the only one who sees a major problem with this wildly inconsistent, judgment-based "ruling". One man's "right in the basket" will almost certainly be another's "blocking view from one side", particularly when the second man is parked on the blocked side and armed with imaginary non-rules, such as - my particular favorite) - " a fundamental expectation is that course elements will be repaired, cleaned or salted so they are in their best or normal condition before the round starts", that are noxiously sprayed like verbal Bud mud by self-proclaimed rules "experts" who vigilantly monitor the disc golf innerwebz drooling at the chance to chime in with rulings from their own personal rule books. All of the groups who follow the actual rules are then disadvantaged by the one that finally takes the easy way out (and all the groups that follow that group).

It is tiresome to read again & again that the rulebook is lacking. While it has many shortcomings, its direction is crystal clear in this (and many other real-world & hypothetical) situation in the very first sentence of 803.05A:

With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described in 803.05 B, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course.

While that rule is often inconvenient, it is not an exercise in which a true sportsman engages to try to make up a bogus exception for himself to attempt to justify flaunting the rules to gain advantage, and it certainly is not an exercise which our "powers (lol) that be" should actively encourage. What seems to be lacking in this case is not the rulebook, but the moral fiber of players and enabling rules "experts".

[Chuck Kennedy]

Sorry, Ray but you conveniently overlook spirit of the game and the Fairness considerations in areas where there are complicating circumstances. For example, a portable basket tips over during the round. Following only 803.05A, the basket couldn't be set back upright. Sensible? I think not. On the first hole of a Final 9, when the entourage got to the basket we noticed someone had jammed a big stick thru the basket and chains. With no hesitation the stick was removed before everyone putted. Wrong according to rule 803.05A. Right in terms of fair play.

TDs have to make tough calls every so often that cross into grey areas and I provide guidance in that direction as if I were the TD making the call. As Carlton and the RC has said over the years, the rules are meant to cover 99.999% of situations. For the other "when hell freezes over" (Carlton's favorite phrase on this) 0.001%, you may have to include spirit of the game and fairness in your judgments.

You won't find those judgments in a book anywhere, at least yet. So we get opinions online where players discuss such special situations. In fact, these become the source of some Rules Q&As when these hell freezes over moments occur and the RC determines the appropriate course of action. And now they've even become official rules this year.

[Raymond W. Parrish]

I decline your apology, o great one, because it is you, sir, who is conveniently overlooking exactly what the rulebook (the pDGA one, not the CK one) has to say about fairness. 803.01F:

F . Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. (emphasis added)

As I have demonstrated above, the rules do, indeed, specifically address this situation in 803.05A, so 803.01F does not apply, and the clearly written rule that unambiguously addresses the situation must be obeyed. Hell has not frozen over in this instance &, as much as you want to shoehorn the scenario into the .001% where you feel you have carte blanche to do whatever the heck you want, the pDGA rules must be followed.

[Matt Grayum]

Okay so we played it right which is good, but what about the taking it a bit further scenario? What if a basket gets engulfed enough by snow thickened foliage that it deems it impossible to hole out. Yes I realize this is highly unlikely, but should it come up what are our choices?

The person with the worst score on the card should take one for the team and drive a disc right into said foliage, freeing up the snow for the rest of the players.

I agree!!!

[Chuck Kennedy]

@ Ray
Item that shows up in the basket like snow heavy branches after round starts, not directly in the rules. Portable basket tipping over during round, not directly in the rules. Straightening out twisted chains before putting, not directly in rules. Big stick in the basket during round, not directly in the rules. These all fall in the 0.001% category. The RC is not going to list all of these unusual problems. Ray is the TD. Will you blindly follow 803.05A in all of these exceptional examples or or make the sensible choice for the players?

Even more common: Player B jangling the chains or calling out from the basket so Player A knows where the blind basket is located, not in the rules. (Even RC members have done this in sanctioned play).

[Raymond W. Parrish]

@ Ray
Item that shows up in the basket like snow heavy branches after round starts, not directly in the rules. Portable basket tipping over during round, not directly in the rules. Straightening out twisted chains before putting, not directly in rules. Big stick in the basket during round, not directly in the rules. These all fall in the 0.001% category. The RC is not going to list all of these unusual problems. Ray is the TD. Will you blindly follow 803.05A in all of these exceptional examples or or make the sensible choice for the players?

Even more common: Player B jangling the chains or calling out from the basket so Player A knows where the blind basket is located, not in the rules. (Even RC members have done this in sanctioned play).

@ Chuck
I am not surprised that you are resorting to your customary debate tactic of tossing out a red herring or two to try to deflect attention from your struggling argument, and I won't take the bait. Please confine your points to the particular situation at hand (as described by the OP in post #3 of this thread, assuming that the engulfment was present before the start of the round) and either humbly - and wisely - concede to my correctness or provide justification from the pDGA rulebook for your original "ruling" (or maybe your revised second "ruling", or maybe an as-yet-formulated third crack at it).

[Mike Connell]

Good reading--

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8624

[Raymond W. Parrish]

It is quite disturbing that the passionate defense one's well-researched & well-crafted point of view - with nary a whisper of a threat, physical or otherwise - earns one a veiled accusation of being a "bully". I guess it shouldn't come as a shock in today's society, where each of us is indoctrinated to blindly accept - nay, embrace - the party line, & those displaying any evidence of independent thought (especially those who show the aptitude to defend it) are branded with unsavory monikers & legislated into silence. You would be a great candidate for the thought police, Mike Connell. Maybe Barry-O (or whomever his nearly-identical successor will be) will be giving you a call soon, you lockstepping über-patriot!

That said, drop your dissent, Chuck, or I'll headbutt you in the liver!

[Chuck Kennedy]

Simple disagreement. You say 99.999%. I say the OP example and the others provided are in the 0.001%. I think you'd find that the Tour Director would back the TD if he chose either way to make the call. Neither of us, you of black & white heartedness and me of grey wizardry, is deputized to make the actual call.

[Mike Connell]

It is quite disturbing that the passionate defense one's well-researched & well-crafted point of view - with nary a whisper of a threat, physical or otherwise - earns one a veiled accusation of being a "bully". I guess it shouldn't come as a shock in today's society, where each of us is indoctrinated to blindly accept - nay, embrace - the party line, & those displaying any evidence of independent thought (especially those who show the aptitude to defend it) are branded with unsavory monikers & legislated into silence. You would be a great candidate for the thought police, Mike Connell. Maybe Barry-O (or whomever his nearly-identical successor will be) will be giving you a call soon, you lockstepping über-patriot!

That said, drop your dissent, Chuck, or I'll headbutt you in the liver!

Better reading ^^^