The long trend

Jay Ducharme · Post by **Jay Ducharme** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:29 am

Yesterday when Davis Johnson and I were playing the HCC course, we were talking about the current trend in course design to make longer holes, and to increase pars from the old traditional 3 to holes that were par 4 or 5.

I find that trend to be a bit distressing. I simply can't throw long. So really longs hole aren't much fun for me; they're more like endurance tests. Once in a while, I don't mind that. But have whole courses that are simply too exhausting to play takes the fun out of it for me. I like courses where a moderately skilled player like myself stands a chance of getting an eagle or birdie with a well-placed shot. The long courses make that impossible for me.

What are some other thoughts on this? Is it possible that some of the beautiful courses like Borderland or Buffumville might simply be too discouraging for novices and amateurs?

Steve Solbo · Post by **Steve Solbo** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:46 am

Only way to throw longer is to practice technique and simply get better.

I still remember the first time I stepped up to Hole #2 at B-Lands, and stared it down and was like, "Heck, there aint no way I am getting less than a 8 on this.." and sure enough, I got an 8.

The way I look at it, last summer, I was averaging in the 80's at borderlands and was happy to be anywhere in the 70's.

Recently, I had my personal best there, a 68, and now am mad at myself for shooting anywhere close to 80.

I like the way courses are getting more challenging, not only are they forcing you to bring your game up, they are forcing ALL of us to bring our game up.

Also, I believe that's why there are many diff. layouts at courses, simply put, if you don't want to play those longer more challenging layouts, then play the Whites at B-Lands, or the Reds at Maple Hill, which.. are still both a challenge in their own right.

Gary Cyr · Post by **Gary Cyr** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:18 am

Jay,

Not only are courses getting longer but disc technology is makeing the equipment go farther. Just like in ball golf, this trend will continue.

I have a few recommendations for you.

First, try some of the new technology (if you aren't already) and practice throwing for distance. Most really good golfers would agree that, while it's great top be able to throw 400 feet. It’s far more important to be able to throw 300 feet with pinpoint accuracy. In some cases there are people that will never throw 300 feet due to one reason or another. So if it 200 or 250 feet that you throw,..learn how to put the disc exactly where you want it.

Second, remove yourself from the disc golf mindset that everything is a par 3, regardless of the distance of each hole. Most of the long courses that I’m playing these days have par 4’s and 5’s for the really long holes printed on the scorecard. Once you start playing the course against the stated scorecard par, I would think you’d get more satisfaction out of carding a 4 on a par 5, even though really good golfers are thinking anything worse than a 3 is a bad score for their level of play.

Third the most important part of scoring birdies and eagles is putting. No matter who you are, you can gain more from improving your thirty footers than you can from gaining 50 feet on your drive.

Dave McHale · Post by **Dave McHale** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:21 am

I think simply getting more consistent on the course is the best way to battle the "long" courses. Sure, a 400' hole will play easier for a player who can chuck it 400' (or close to) but that's simply a factor of better players being better at certain aspects of the game. And just because someone CAN throw 400', that doesnt mean they may not still take a 4 on the hole with a shanked drive, bad upshot, and a missed putt.

I've always been a firm believer that you dont NEED to throw more than 300' to be an extremely strong player on the course. Look at some of the pro masters (no offense, old guys, you're just an easy example

). Some of them simply dont have the D that their younger counterparts do, but through practice and smart play, they can hang with or close to the best of 'em. Hole 2 B-B at borderlands is a great example. There's no way a 4 is unattainable to anyone who can throw 300'. It takes 3 well-placed shots, but it's certainly not unthinkable. And taking a 5 on that hole is still, for most people, "par". I've seen plenty of people who can chuck the disc far take a 7 or worse on the hole.

Only some courses ignore the lesser-armed players - a course like Borderland (since it was already mentioned as an example of a longer course) shouldnt discourage novices or amateurs because those players shouldnt be playing B-B. That's what the White baskets/tees are for. Not to say those people cant play longer layouts, but at least they still have the option at a course like that to play W-B or B-W... step it up without playing the "leviathan" version of the course.

I think it's more about attitude than aptitude. Don't get discouraged, but play to your strengths and if you dont have a weapon in your bag, why aren't you out on the practice field developing it?

Whether that weapon is more distance, more accurate upshots, or putting - there's always something to work on. I dont think course designers should be faulted for making longer, more challenging layouts at all.

discglfr05 · Post by **discglfr05** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:39 am

There's really no harm in creating longer holes for two reasons: (1) it helps to motivate you to practice more and work on your long throw and your placement/strategic skills and (2) Most long hole courses will typically have a shorter layout configuration( ala w-w @borderland). Once you reach a comfort level shooting the shorter layouts, you'll feel more confident in tackling the longer ones....variety baby!..it's essential to any good course

Davis Johnson · Post by **Davis Johnson** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:54 am

I've long been critical of long holes, just for the sake of long. But well designed long holes, or well designed shorter with their share of fair technical challenges are a boon to our pastime. Each of these is present in abundance on the Blue-Blues at Borderland.

Yes, to new players, or to anybody in need of expanding their disc skills,
a course like this can be intimidating and discouraging. But the great thing about this game that keeps me coming back for more is that there is endless opportunity to develop ones skills, both physical and mental. Borderland Blue is one of those courses where one can go from cruising altitude to a sudden crash and it can take but one bad hole to change a round around. On the other hand birdie or two on those long par fives
can have the opposite effect. One round on the Blues is like an entire day
of competing with all its ups and downs. It's like you've lived an entire existence, and then you wake up at the end and realize there's another 18 to go...

And I totally agreee that working on ones game through practice makes all the difference. The way an old guy like me stays competitive is to learn new tricks-- a sidearm for instance, without which I'd be lost. And then I watch a Mike Connell make amazing shots with that upside down
wrist-flicker thingamajig, and observe the disc just stick like to velcro where it lands, and try to incorporate a little of that into my game for getting out of trouble...

Finally, as others have mentioned, if a challenging layout like the B-Land Blues have put you on anti-depressants, there is always the Whites. That
layout is just plain fun, kind of like taking the water slide at the amusement park-- a birdy opportunity around every bend.

So forget the anti-depressants-- just go play the more recreational layout that many courses offer, and when the thrill dulls a little--step up.

Jay Ducharme · Post by **Jay Ducharme** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:07 pm

Thanks for all the suggestions. It's not that I get bummed out by the trend toward long courses. I just don't feel I'll ever be able to throw well enough to play them efficiently. But then again, fifteen years ago I didn't think I'd ever be able to throw a disc more than 100 feet.... Maybe it's time to update my arsenal and practice more....

Morgan Wright · Post by **Morgan Wright** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:43 am

If you think it's hard to get a "birdie" because the hole is too long, then you just have to change the par.

When a 4 is birdie and a 3 is eagle, then we are talking about REAL disc golf, and can finally throw away our smelly 1976 Chuck Taylor cons

Felix Harvey · Post by **Felix Harvey** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:10 pm

Have you been taking your meds Morgan? You're making way too much sense.

John Borelli · Post by **John Borelli** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:55 pm

IMHO the key is balance. We also need shorter, challenging, and fair courses that welcome newbies into the sport and keep them coming back for more. We also need courses for intermediate and advanced players to improve their skills on while keeping it fun. You have to crawl before you can walk...

Course designers cannot ignore this group of players and must help to build up that base of players for the future. Then after a while, as an earlier poster alluded to, the player can move on to another "longer" course where other skills are required.

That was our goal at Devens -- to create a quality course for all skill levels while working on introducing the sport to a new crop of players along I-495 and Rt 2 in MA. Maybe in a few years Devens will be too "short" for the locals who have turned into great golfers. When that happens, there's 20+ more acres waiting for me to layout out there! Ohh yeah..... :drunken:

Jay Ducharme · Post by **Jay Ducharme** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:30 pm

> IMHO the key is balance. We also need shorter, challenging, and fair courses that welcome newbies into the sport and keep them coming back for more. We also need courses for intermediate and advanced players to improve their skills on while keeping it fun. You have to crawl before you can walk... <

I completely agree with this. The Northampton (MA) course is interesting, but I didn't enjoy playing it because I felt it was way beyond my skill level. That 900+ foot hole was agonizing for me; I knew there was no way I could par it. To me, that's not what the sport is about. I like courses where I feel that if I play the best game I'm able to, then I stand a chance of at least making par.

> That was our goal at Devens <

I'll have to check it out. That's my goal with the HCC course as well; to give novices and intermediates a do-able challenge. I've been able to par every hole so far -- just not all in the same round. For pros, I can always move the tees back.

> When a 4 is birdie and a 3 is eagle, then we are talking about REAL disc golf <

I think it's still possible to have well-designed par-3 courses that challenge your strategy rather than your muscle. But sure, there's room in this world for both styles of courses. It'll just be a while before I feel confident enough to take on the longer pars.

Jay

Joe Yaskis · Post by **Joe Yaskis** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:39 am

It seems to me that most new courses have that one hole that is 1million feet long cluttered around a bunch of holes that are between 200-400ft. Some courses are well thought out and designed to challenge all levels of play, Borderlands and Maple Hill. New courses are getting longer and old courses appear to be very short. The sport continues to grow every day with new disc manufactures and courses designers taking their shot to improve the game. I welcome the challenge because in my opinion once something becomes easy its no longer fun.

Side note:

Having every shot in the bag: flick, tomahawk, backhand, hyzer, ani, thumber are crucial to success. I need to work on my thumber because once it comes out I really don't know where it will end up. Bottom line: Practice every scenario because that situation could arrive in a tournament.

Gary Cyr · Post by **Gary Cyr** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:28 am

Beginner golfers need to remember that success should be found in your improvement from where you were a few months previous. Look for success in these three areas

#1 Is the distance of my drive increasing
#2 Am I getting better at putting from 15’, 20’, 25’ (whatever the distance you struggle with is)
#3 Am I consistently landing the disc closer to where I’m aiming.

All this should be considered regardless if you are playing a course like Maple Hill or Burgess Park (2 very different courses with regard to distance and difficulty)

Until you are a player that is confident that “par” is within your own personal abilities, regardless of the course you are playing,…then “par” is really immaterial.

I say this because the term “par” has to do with an achieved skill level. For those of us that play ball golf, we know that par allows a player take a proper number of shots and still allow 2 putts per green. (EXAMPLE: a par 4 holes allows,..tee shot, approach shot,..2 putts for par). This is not quite the same in discgolf because of the lack of consistency in courses. Some 18 hole course are 3,000’ and some are 7,000’. And we tend to score every hole as a par 3. However, the concept of par being related to a skill level is still the same.

Long before every player pars his favorite course, he/she could the put their best scores on holes from all the rounds they have played there, added those scores up and totaled a round of 8-9-10 under. Why,..becuase you are good enough to birdie any hole at anytime time,..but not good enough to birdie most of the holes,..most of the time.

Change your paradigm when playing longer courses. I wouldn’t spend a lot of time making to many short courses. Short shots and putting should be practiced in an area like Buff has with two baskets about 100' (or so) away from each other. You create games involving diferent shots which are throw in a much more repetitive fashion. That way you get much more practice in less time.

Remember par is irrelevant until your skill level allows you to par all courses.

IMHO

GC

Jeff LaGrassa · Post by **Jeff LaGrassa** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:40 pm

jay_ducharme wrote:Yesterday when Davis Johnson and I were playing the HCC course, we were talking about the current trend in course design to make longer holes, and to increase pars from the old traditional 3 to holes that were par 4 or 5.

I find that trend to be a bit distressing. I simply can't throw long. So really longs hole aren't much fun for me; they're more like endurance tests. Once in a while, I don't mind that. But have whole courses that are simply too exhausting to play takes the fun out of it for me. I like courses where a moderately skilled player like myself stands a chance of getting an eagle or birdie with a well-placed shot. The long courses make that impossible for me.

What are some other thoughts on this? Is it possible that some of the beautiful courses like Borderland or Buffumville might simply be too discouraging for novices and amateurs?

The trick is for course designers to make pro par four and pro par five holes that aren't just long for the sake of long. The best holes do so by using woods, doglegs, elevation, and occasionally, mandatories to make for a higher par hole. I think most course designers agree that a wide open 800-1000 foot hole is dumb. Here's some of my favorite examples of holes that golfers who can only throw 250-275 feet can still score birdies on:

Warwick hole 5 Blue-Blue, 380 ft: One of the fastest greens on the East Coast makes approaches and putting tricky, but with two well-placed shots, even a weenie arm can be putting for birdie three on this pro par four.
Warwick hole 8 Blue-Blue, 437 ft: This hole is tight! The fairway is no wider than about 30 feet for the entire length of the hole, which bends gently left. Accuracy, not a big arm, is a premium on this pro par 4 hole.
Warwick hole 14 Blue-Blue, 737 ft: From the length of this hole, you'd think that it would be very difficult for noodle arms. However, because of the huge downhill elevation change, "pinch point" in the middle of the hole, and water around the basket, again accuracy is more important than distance and a 275-foot accurate thrower can score just as well as a big arm, imo.
Warwick hole 18 Blue-Blue, 899 feet: Such a long hole must surely favor a power thrower, right? Wrong. Getting out of the gauntlet and into the field near the short tee is critical on the drive. Then a very accurate second shot must be made that negotiates trees, avoids the OB road beyond the short pin, and sets up a final shot to the polehole. This last approach shot must again negotiate trees to reach the long pin, and I've often seen weenie arms string together three accurate shots to have a realistic shot at a birdie four on this pro par five.
FDR Park Hole 5, 450? feet: The tee shot plays through tight woods to the downslope of a small hill. Placement is critical to allow an open look to the polehole on the approach. Too far right or too far left on the drive doesn't allow such a clear look. I've seen many a big arm catch early wood off the tee and take a 6 on this hole, and I've seen many a noodle arm make two great fairway shots and putt for birdie three on this true pro par four hole.

Mike Dussault · Post by **Mike Dussault** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:07 pm

I would add hole 4 Blue to Blue Warwick, Lots of OB to make approaches tricky, elevated tee mitigates the distance on the drive.
Hole 8 Borderland Blue to Blue- Ultimate risk reward hole. Get off the tee or else...Plenty of OB on the approach also.

Matt Stroika · Post by **Matt Stroika** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:17 pm

Hahaha... hole 8 at borderland. That is funny Mike. I saw this guy take a circle 9 there last weekend.

Dave McHale · Post by **Dave McHale** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:56 pm

Hole 4 BB at warwick isnt as nasty anymore mike... have you played there recently since they moved the basket? At Animalfest it was no longer down the line of grass on the right side of the lot, but rather in between the stone wall and the lot itself. The Trailer for the NT DVD shows the basket in its current location, actually. Much less treacherous upshots now, IMO

Mike Dussault · Post by **Mike Dussault** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:43 pm

Awww Matt, did you have to go there? :cry:

What you fail to mention is how I managed to beat you by two strokes anyway... even after taking a 9!!! :wink:

Billy MacWilliams · Post by **Billy MacWilliams** » Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:07 am

SMACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dave Jackson · Post by **Dave Jackson** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:17 pm

Throw flat, throw straight and make 30 footers. One shot at a time. One flat, straight, well executed shot at a time. That will shorten up any course. Go play tulley dam in athol..

Steve Solbo · Post by **Steve Solbo** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:16 am

Matt Stroika wrote:Hahaha... hole 8 at borderland. That is funny Mike. I saw this guy take a circle 9 there last weekend.

Yeah, well I took a quintuple circle 15 there last summer.. So there! :lol:

Arty Graustein · Post by **Arty Graustein** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:32 pm

Matt Stroika wrote:

I saw this guy take a circle 9 there last weekend.

Double-circle 8 for me at the NEFA finals a couple of months ago. I was actually proud of that score after back to back OB drives. Nevertheless, I'm still haunted by that hole.

Dave Jackson wrote:

Go play tulley dam in athol..

I concur. Played three rounds on the full 18 so far and the best score I came up with is a 66. Flat and straight is critical and you better know how to putt. Also, like Joe Yaskis mentioned earlier you need to have a full arsenal of shots. I had to use flicks and tomahawks that are a little beyond my comfort zone. Some worked out well and others... err.. not so well. I'd be curious to hear the course record now that its 18 holes.

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