Moving dead debris tangled in live vines?

[Gary Cyr]

This question came up yesterday at Central Park.

In New England there are lots of vines. There were two seperate situations in our rounds where a disc came to rest on top of a lot of debris that was dead and down, but tangled within live vines. If you move the dead debris the vines would move. In this situation is there any way to remove the debris to provide for a better stance or do you have to leave it alone because of the live vines?

[Chris Mergemekes]

I think you would have to leave it and use the stand behind the "unsafe" lie, no closer to the hole, etc. rule.

[Josh Connell]

This question came up yesterday at Central Park.

In New England there are lots of vines. There were two seperate situations in our rounds where a disc came to rest on top of a lot of debris that was dead and down, but tangled within live vines. If you move the dead debris the vines would move. In this situation is there any way to remove the debris to provide for a better stance or do you have to leave it alone because of the live vines?

I think the answer starts with deciding whether debris that is tangled with vines to the point of being inseparable constitutes being "loose". The rules lists casual obstacles as: "casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any area specifically designated by the director". Nothing about "dead" versus "live" as a matter of qualification.

If you conclude that because it's entangled in the live vines, it's not "loose", then I'd say you play as it lies with no relief. At least, no free relief...an optional re-throw is always an option.

If you conclude that it is "loose" debris, but because of the vine entanglement, it is impractical to move it, you can take casual relief from it...first available lie on the line of play within 5 meters.

I don't think anyone is going to come to a concrete conclusion on this without seeing the situation first hand. What it actually looked like and what I'm picturing it as could well be two very different situations in which the rules could also be very different.

[Gary Cyr]

It was both Me and Cutler in these situations. Debris was def dead and down just tangled up in some ground growth which is common here in New England. We each went to move the debris and the vines started to move. the vines were clearly alive and growing. In the end once we stopped trying to move the debris, both our lies were probably worse than they were originally.

[Chuck Kennedy]

If there are casual objects in your stance or run-up, they can be moved. If it's unreasonable to move them such as taking too long or in this case disturbing live obstacles, then you get free relief back from them on the line of play, just enough to get them in front of your lie moving back up to a max of 5m if needed.

[Chris Mergemekes]

What about living small trees and plants that are bent down to the ground (i.e. trampled by some douche who wants to improve his lie by damaging plant-life). Is it ok to lift up the poor things, even after a throw, or is that considered "altering the course." I've seen people move logs and stones out of fairways just while walking casually to another lie and I'm pretty sure that's a "no-no" too since it alters the course for the other players in the tournament/ league/ happening, etc.