Hole 9 Vibram.

[Mike Dussault]

I am bringing this up because I am board, not because I think it made a difference in the tournament. I do not blame anyone, my mistake for not playing provisional. Please discuss...

There was an issue with hole 9 and a spotters mis-interpretation of the rules, and a sub-sequent mis interpretation by the TD via phone. I just read the program and I quote, "The ponds and the bridge to the green are OB. The stream as defined by rope, is casual."

No wonder there was confusion, this is misleading. This is not to gripe, just to bring up a healthy rules discussion. I was stroked for my mistake of not trusting my gut and playing provisional. A player in my group that first round never took the 2 stroke penalty according to his score.

[Paul Sullivan]

Is there rope across each end of the stream that delineates where the stream stops and the ponds begin??

[Mike Dussault]

The problem is that rope marks OB typically and in this case as well. I don't think rope marks a casual stream anywhere on the course. When you see rope at MH one usually thinks Oh NO, OB!

[Tim Carter]

I think "as defined by the rope" accurately describes the ob/ casual situation on hole 9. In other words the rope delineates what is ob and what is casual. Since there is no ob rope near the stream, the stream is casual. Actually, the stream that is casual is pretty much dry... Since it plays the same as every other ob rope situation, and the same as the hole has played in the past, maybe it would have been better to say nothing? Very surprised to read here that it was an experienced vibram open/ maple hill player who was among the confused. I ignorantly assumed it was someone unfamiliar with the course or trying to bend the rules.

Your honesty is commendable Mike. Way to do the right thing.

[Steve Dodge]

There were four people that stepped forward and took the hole 9 lumps. These lumps were caused by a miscommunication between the spotter on hole 9 and me - for which I am responsible. I said that the stream was casual, the spotter looked for a stream and since we've been so dry, the only stream on hole 9 was down at the bottom and this is what caused the confusion. It is my error and Mike D and others paid the price. For this I apologize, as I did to every group on Saturday while calling the tee times. I am proud of the fact that the four that stood up and took the penalty strokes (which I caused) are all good friends. Mike, you and the others should be lauded for your honesty. Thanks for playing the game with honor.

[Nick Szymczak]

I played it right the first round saw the rope knew that rope meant ob took my penalty stroke. Im not really sure how you could think that wasn't ob. If it was casual there wouldn't be a rope I don't really understand what the confusion was all about.

[Titan Bariloni]

I don't really understand what the confusion was all about.

x2

[Gary Cyr]

I have a question from the same hole. There is a tree located in a position right next to the OB. It's just left of the basket if you are facing the basket from the fairway. The OB rope is touching the tree and our group was trying to make the argument that a disc hitting the front of the tree and dropping OB has never crossed inbounds and must be played before the OB and not across it. there was no doubt that a penalty stroke was to be taken because the disc landed OB.

Where is this shot supposed to be played? I argued strongly that the player should play it both ways and then ask Steve, however for some reason they didn't want to do this.

[Josh Connell]

I have a question from the same hole. There is a tree located in a position right next to the OB. It's just left of the basket if you are facing the basket from the fairway. The OB rope is touching the tree and our group was trying to make the argument that a disc hitting the front of the tree and dropping OB has never crossed inbounds and must be played before the OB and notacross it. there was no doubt that a penalty stroke was to be taken because the disc landed OB.

Where is this shot supposed to be played? I argued strongly that the player should play it both ways and then ask Steve, however for some reason they didn't want to do this.

If the rope is the line and the tree trunk is entirely on the in-bounds side of the rope, then I can see where striking the trunk of the tree could constitute having touched in-bounds, allowing the player to mark his next lie 1-meter in from the tree.

However, does the tree trunk stand straight up and down? If it leans out over the OB area, and the disc struck a point on the tree that is directly over the OB area, then the disc never crossed in-bounds on the tree side of the OB and the mark would have to come on the fairway side of the OB.

Difficult to make that call with certainty without seeing the tree in question. But playing both lies provisionally and letting the TD decide is always the best choice when a question like that arises.

[Gary Cyr]

I believe the tree leans away from the OB. I personally didn't see the disc hit the tree. Being a local I made the arguement that this is played as crossing the OB. Different view points were then discussed. At that time there was a 2 hole opening in front of us and my arguement was to plly it both ways for speed of play even though I was sure I was right. I don't know why a player would not choose to play it both ways. Especially in a situation where everything was already so close to the basket and could be done quickly. After all, it's not like I was suggesting a player play two discs all the way to the basket from tee box #11

[Kenji Cline]

Gary how did this play out? Did they play off the fairway side or green side? And what was the reasoning against a provisional?

[Gary Cyr]

It was played 1 meter in past the OB as if it had crossed inbounds. The player took a stroke penalty. I can't tell you why the player didn't want to play it both ways. You would have to ask them. At this point I can't even remember which player it was in my group that threw the shot. Sunday I was tunnel visioned into my own game.

[Josh Connell]

It was played 1 meter in past the OB as if it had crossed inbounds. The player took a stroke penalty. I can't tell you why the player didn't want to play it both ways. You would have to ask them. At this point I can't even remember which player it was in my group that threw the shot. Sunday I was tunnel visioned into my own game.

I can. If he took it on the green side, he's taking it to get the shorter putt and the more sure thing. He could have holed it out from across the water as well, but it's not such an easy putt and probably would have cost him an extra stroke.

Only reason for him to take the longer shot, even as a provisional, is if there was a strong enough case made by the group that that's where he should have thrown from. If the majority of the group gave him the closer spot, why would he argue?

[Steve Dodge]

I think I know the tree you are talking about Gary and the tree leans over the OB. I know of two groups that had a similar question, both groups ruled (without my input) that the disc never came in bounds and played from the far side of the creek. Thanks for reminding me of this, I will add it to my list of things to make more clear next year. Depending how low you hit the trunk and/or a tad left or right of center, it could be argued that the disc did cross in bounds as it hit the tree.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Sounds like a scenario where playing from a required drop zone might make sense no matter how you end up OB?

[Gary Cyr]

I think I know the tree you are talking about Gary and the tree leans over the OB. I know of two groups that had a similar question, both groups ruled (without my input) that the disc never came in bounds and played from the far side of the creek. Thanks for reminding me of this, I will add it to my list of things to make more clear next year. Depending how low you hit the trunk and/or a tad left or right of center, it could be argued that the disc did cross in bounds as it hit the tree.

I'm sure you have the right tree. Where exactly the disc hit the tree did become the conversation. Unfortunately it becomes so hard to tell exactly where it hit a player can easily argue it crossed in play and most groups will give benefit of doubt to the thrower.

[Mike Dussault]

same thing happened in my group and we made the guy play it from the far side of stream.

The tree hangs out over the OB.

[Gary Cyr]

same thing happened in my group and we made the guy play it from the far side of stream.

The tree hangs out over the OB.

Yes but like was already said the left and right side of the tree very low near the ground is actually in bounds. I'm not quite sure how a disc that hits the side of the tree can end up backwards and OB. I probably should have been more forceful with my request to play it both ways. However, I had already had an incident where I called a 3 min clock on a player immediately upon looking for a disc and it made for a bad vibe in the group. Sometimes I really hate the way the rulebook addresses some issues.