Holing out

[Eric Kevorkian]

Some of you may have heard me asking about this during VibrAM

I was finishing up on a hole, made my putt, and proceeded to retrieve my disc from the basket. I had the disc in my hand and was proceeding to walk away to let the others finish the hole.

I was no more than 2-3ft away (because I had JUST picked up my disc) when a player putted from a very short distance and it happened to spit out.

After the round, I found out that the player who missed the putt had asked another member of my group to second a violation...distraction or courtesy or something....to which he basically said "no way".

Is there ANY ground for a violation there? In my opinion, they are responsible for putting when they are ready. I believe I was doing the right thing when I retrieved my disc and proceeded to walk away...it's their responsibility to wait until I do so, no?

[Mike Murphy]

It should be the putting player's responsibility to putt when he/she is "clear of distractions", and if that person is being distracted by another player in the group they should ask the person to move or stop before putting.

You by no means did anything wrong, IMO.

[Chuck Kennedy]

It was the putter's fault. No violation.

[Josh Connell]

This is why a courtesy violation call requires a second in order to stand. From your description, you did nothing wrong. You were retrieving your disc from the basket and moving out of the way. The player was the one who was impatient and didn't wait for you to clear. He was in control over whether or not you were a "distraction" to him since you were right in front of him. It's not like you snuck up on him or you were entering his field of vision as he was putting...you were on your way out of his field of vision. Good on the other guy in the group for not going along with seconding the violation.

That said, the worst that comes of it is a courtesy warning against you. No penalties (unless you had already committed another infraction earlier in the round), and more importantly, no reparations for the player who called the violation. He doesn't get a "re-do" because you distracted him and he successfully called you on a courtesy violation. His spit putt still stands regardless.

[Eric Kevorkian]

It should be the putting player's responsibility to putt when he/she is "clear of distractions", and if that person is being distracted by another player in the group they should ask the person to move or stop before putting.

You by no means did anything wrong, IMO.

That's exactly how I see it too. I pretty much just laughed it off, but then it started to bug me that they had the nerve to actually try and penalize me for their mistake.

[Brad Harris]

Rule 803.07

A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes
to rest. A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked
as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an
official. Alternatively, for intentional interference only, the thrower has the option of taking a re-throw. Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight
or path of a disc could easily occur. The away player may require other players to mark their
lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could
interfere with his or her throw.

As I read this, if he had hit you while putting, it's no penalty and he plays it from where it lies since it was not intentionally deflected. Additionally, it is the throwers responsibility to ensure that the throwing lane is free of external obstacles (including people).

There is absolutely nothing in the rulebook that he could cite to justify his claim.

[Mike Murphy]

Sounds like some sour grapes for missing an easy putt. You should have offered him a tissue.

[John DeBois]

I would almost want to give the putter a courtesy violation for not waiting long enough.

Seems like this is happening a lot more lately, along with people tapping-out out of turn. And another one is people marking their lie too early - A few times I would be approaching my lie on the green - starting my routine - and someone would walk up and mark there lie which was closer to the basket. Not sure if it's intentional, but it breaks rhythm.

[Mike Murphy]

I've noticed just a general lack of calling/pointing out rules lately all over.

Not calling falling putts, foot fouls, 30 seconds, etc.

If you're playing casual, sure knock yourself out. But during any organized play it should be enforced, period.

[John DeBois]

foot faults rarely get called, especially if it's a bad shot.

[Titan Bariloni]

seen a foot fault and 2nd at the V on a great shot..

[Matt Stroika]

I would almost want to give the putter a courtesy violation for not waiting long enough.

Seems like this is happening a lot more lately, along with people tapping-out out of turn. And another one is people marking their lie too early - A few times I would be approaching my lie on the green - starting my routine - and someone would walk up and mark there lie which was closer to the basket. Not sure if it's intentional, but it breaks rhythm.

Speed of play? You still have as much time as you need as the furtherest out to take your shot after you are free of distractions. I don't see the problems. Is that against the rules?

[Mike Murphy]

They should all get called immediately. I wish I'd get called more since I know on fairway shots I do that from time to time and I need to get better at it. If no one calls it I dont' know because i'm looking forward.

[Karl Molitoris]

...but then it started to bug me that they had the nerve to actually try and penalize me for their mistake.

Eric,
I'm guessing (only a guess) that that player's intent was not to get you to incur penalty but rather - had the call been 'seconded' - then to try to get him a re-throw (although, like Josh pointed out, he'd have 'failed' on that one).

Karl

[John DeBois]

I would almost want to give the putter a courtesy violation for not waiting long enough.

Seems like this is happening a lot more lately, along with people tapping-out out of turn. And another one is people marking their lie too early - A few times I would be approaching my lie on the green - starting my routine - and someone would walk up and mark there lie which was closer to the basket. Not sure if it's intentional, but it breaks rhythm.

Speed of play? You still have as much time as you need as the furtherest out to take your shot after you are free of distractions. I don't see the problems. Is that against the rules?

For tapping-out out of turn without consent:

801.02 E. Throwing out of turn shall be considered a courtesy violation. See 801.01F.

For marking your lie while the away player is about to throw:

801.01 B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing, freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, throwing minis, and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player. Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone in danger of being struck by a disc is not a violation of courtesy.

[Josh Connell]

I would almost want to give the putter a courtesy violation for not waiting long enough.

Seems like this is happening a lot more lately, along with people tapping-out out of turn. And another one is people marking their lie too early - A few times I would be approaching my lie on the green - starting my routine - and someone would walk up and mark there lie which was closer to the basket. Not sure if it's intentional, but it breaks rhythm.

Speed of play? You still have as much time as you need as the furtherest out to take your shot after you are free of distractions. I don't see the problems. Is that against the rules?

As a matter of fact, the action JDB describes is against the rules.

801.01 Courtesy
B....Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing, freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, throwing minis, and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player.

The only exception to advancing beyond the away player, the "speed of play" aspect, is found in 801.02 Order of Play:

C. After all the players in the group have teed off, the player farthest from the hole (the away player) throws first. To facilitate flow of play, a player who is not farthest away may play next if the away player consents.

Key phrase is the bolded. If a player who is not away wants to address his lie in some way (mark it, identify the disc, whatever), especially if the away player is in the process of making his throw, I would expect the non-away player to ask the away player for permission before doing so. The away player has the right of way, so to speak.

There are plenty of rules designed, in part, to keep up speed of play on the course...30 seconds to throw, 3 minutes to find a lost disc, provisional throws, throwing out of turn with permission of the away player, etc. But there actually is no reference anywhere in the book to the term "speed of play". Closest the book comes is in the provisional rule where it says that a provisional is allowed in situations where it would "speed play". The concept of "speed of play" isn't of such importance that it negates the written rules.

Somewhere along the line, I think the pendulum has swung too far in the whole speed of play thing. It used to be stringent adherence to the rules (mark all shots with a mini, away player always throws first, etc). In the spirit of speeding up the game, some of those rules were relaxed (thrown disc can be used as a marker, players can throw out of turn with away player's permission, etc). Now it's to the point where people often forget the courtesies intended in the rules in the name of "speed of play".

Besides, how much time is gained by running up and marking that lie as JDB described? Isn't the time gained by marking lost again when JDB has to step back and re-start his routine due to the distraction?

[Daniel Marcus]

I called a foot fault - it was a great shot and it was seconded. The offending player actually thanked me afterward for actually playing by the rules.

To JDB's point, I probably used the phrase "do you mind if I advance?" at least 30 times during the week - for a variety of reasons (spotting, better vantage, shade, etc). It's not only polite and thoughtful, but it's the RULES...

[Scott Howard]

i got a dollar i know who it was

[Bill Newman]

gotta be a touring "pro" doing the complaining

[Bobby Direnzo]

I would almost want to give the putter a courtesy violation for not waiting long enough.

Seems like this is happening a lot more lately, along with people tapping-out out of turn. And another one is people marking their lie too early - A few times I would be approaching my lie on the green - starting my routine - and someone would walk up and mark there lie which was closer to the basket. Not sure if it's intentional, but it breaks rhythm.

Now I know what do do when im in your group.

[Bobby Direnzo]

i got a dollar i know who it was

You?

[Jeff Prendergast]

You were retrieving your disc from the basket and moving out of the way. The player was the one who was impatient and didn't wait for you to clear. He was in control over whether or not you were a "distraction" to him since you were right in front of him. It's not like you snuck up on him or you were entering his field of vision as he was putting...you were on your way out of his field of vision. Good on the other guy in the group for not going along with seconding the violation.

Is there anything in the rules that says a player must clear his/her disc from the basket? It's become the norm, but is that out of courtesy (reduce disc-related bounce outs) or because the rules say it must be done?

I normally don't care if it's cleared. I step up to my shot promptly when it's my turn and actually find it more distracting to wait for another player to walk up & get a disc. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the courtesy, but the time lag (as small as it is) can affect me. I guess my options are to (1)slow down, or (2)tell my group they don't have to clear it for my sake, which I probably would never bother doing because even I would think it's an odd request.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Is there anything in the rules that says a player must clear his/her disc from the basket? It's become the norm, but is that out of courtesy (reduce disc-related bounce outs) or because the rules say it must be done?

It's in the middle of 803.05 A:
A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play.

[Josh Connell]

You were retrieving your disc from the basket and moving out of the way. The player was the one who was impatient and didn't wait for you to clear. He was in control over whether or not you were a "distraction" to him since you were right in front of him. It's not like you snuck up on him or you were entering his field of vision as he was putting...you were on your way out of his field of vision. Good on the other guy in the group for not going along with seconding the violation.

Is there anything in the rules that says a player must clear his/her disc from the basket? It's become the norm, but is that out of courtesy (reduce disc-related bounce outs) or because the rules say it must be done?

I normally don't care if it's cleared. I step up to my shot promptly when it's my turn and actually find it more distracting to wait for another player to walk up & get a disc. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the courtesy, but the time lag (as small as it is) can affect me. I guess my options are to (1)slow down, or (2)tell my group they don't have to clear it for my sake, which I probably would never bother doing because even I would think it's an odd request.

It used to be part of the rule that you weren't officially holed out until the disc had been removed after it had come to rest in the target. They eliminated that part of the rule a while back but it remains a courtesy thing. And like Chuck points out, a player can ask for it to be pulled if the player isn't prompt to do it themselves.

[Mike Laterreur]

In otherwords Jeff,
If you'd prefer to just putt, you could ask your group at the beginning of the rd if they didn't mind leaving ther disc in until after you putt.

I'm sure most won't mind at all.