Would you stay "dry" at an event to help grow our sport?

[Andrew Tabaczynski]

PGA tour and the MLB don't ban tobacco, I dont see what that would be a good idea for disc golf. You see Angel Cabrera and plenty others occasionally smoking butts, the only reason you don't see it more is because of the film crews, if you look at MLB, a very high percentage of players have a dip in while they are playing... lets keep the focus on illegal activities and not try to change too much all at once...0.02

[Andrew McManus]

I think having a few select tourneys with a dry code is long overdue, considering its in the interest of growing the sport. Promoting a responsible and professional image of the sport of disc golf for media and the public is something worth doing, not only for gaining sponsorship money, but also gaining public acceptance overall. Public acceptance translates to more courses and a reduction in the stereotype that disc golf is a hippy activity with all the connotations that go along with it.

If I were to propose a course, I would love to invite the stakeholders to a local tournament that projected a professional image of the sport from start to finish. There will never be a shortage of tourneys and events where this idea won't be needed, so why not designate a few select events to implement this, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Lastly, players on any course that exists on public property where alcohol consumption is prohibited should follow that rule, be it in the parking lot or on the course. We lost a beautiful 9 hole course at Cape Cod Comm College because of issues like drinking, drug use, broken glass, butts/litter, etc, etc. Not only were the baskets pulled, but there was also an article in the CC Times that painted disc golf in a rather unflattering light. The stigma that course closing caused still lingers today in this area and that's a real shame.

[Pete Lauber]

Why not create a pledge that people can sign prior to a tournament which states that for the purpose of growing the sport etc.. etc.. you will not partake in any activities (during the tournament) which are a detriment to the overall reputation of the game. I think bringing this to the attention of players at the tournament and putting the solution in their hands would be a good idea. The issue of how people behave while playing recreationally is a whole different ball game. The truth of the matter is that many of us who play DG have a vice or two or three.. However I would imagine we all want what’s best for the overall growth of the game.

[Tim Carter]

PGA tour and the MLB don't ban tobacco, I dont see what that would be a good idea for disc golf. You see Angel Cabrera and plenty others occasionally smoking butts, the only reason you don't see it more is because of the film crews, if you look at MLB, a very high percentage of players have a dip in while they are playing... lets keep the focus on illegal activities and not try to change too much all at once...0.02

Illegal activities like beer?

[Jeff Prendergast]

Maybe we should start by not putting these 2 threads next to each other.

But seriously...why aren't people stroking a player who is drinking alcohol during a PDGA round? Rules are rules, right?

[Sean Healy]

PGA tour and the MLB don't ban tobacco, I dont see what that would be a good idea for disc golf. You see Angel Cabrera and plenty others occasionally smoking butts, the only reason you don't see it more is because of the film crews, if you look at MLB, a very high percentage of players have a dip in while they are playing... lets keep the focus on illegal activities and not try to change too much all at once...0.02

Agree 100%

[Bill Bertera]

Maybe we should start by not putting these 2 threads next to each other.

But seriously...why aren't people stroking a player who is drinking alcohol during a PDGA round? Rules are rules, right?

my reasons for not enforcing that is:

1. I don't care enough
2. hopefully it will impair their skills enough where I can pick up a stroke
3. but mainly, I don't want to start a "thing" that will effect my play. If someone asks if the card minds if they drink (and my my experience they always do), I don't want to say no to risk a conflict, however minor, that will stress me out. I suck enough without a distraction like that throughout the round. If TD's said the entire card would be penalized, I'd feel more comfortable enforcing.

as to "growing the game", the biggest hurdle is getting non-players to watch/care.Even ball golf, that has tons of sponsorships and TV contracts, caters primarily to people that play. ever try to watch golf? if you stay awake long enough to make it to a commercial break, 98% of all the commercials are for golf balls, golf clubs, and whatever else golfers like, Heineken probably? Add in that bolfers typically make more a lot money than disc golfers...

[Chris Young]

Cigarettes and tobacco in general are nasty,nasty,nasty. I would not mind seeing them disappear from competition. I don't care if the U.S govt says they are legal, that doesn't mean crap to me.

[Dan Doyle]

i am generally not a rules guy when it comes to legislating personal behavior, especially when exercising our freedom of speech and behavior doesnt negatively impact the experience of others in our midst.

however, where park rules specifically prohibit alcohol consumption, it pi$$es me off when so many disc golfers choose to blatantly ignore that rule.

i dont get pi$$ed based on ethical or moral considerations but because of practical concerns. if a single course gets pulled because we were stupid with regard to consumption at an organized event that would totally blow.

i have deliberately avoided a lot of local events the past few years, in many cases because of consumption issues. i feel as though i am as guilty as the abuser and am basically an enabler if i dont speak up, and am hypocritical if on rare occasions i consume.

my main message is if you cant or wont follow the rules, at least be as discreet as you can possibly be. coffee travel mugs provide excellent cover.

dandoyle
warwick, ny

[Josh Connell]

But seriously...why aren't people stroking a player who is drinking alcohol during a PDGA round? Rules are rules, right?

Probably because it isn't an offense for which a player can assess penalties. It falls under the Player Misonduct heading in the Competition Manual, for which only the TD (or the PDGA if offenses warrant) can really assess discipline. All a player can really do in the course of a round is warn the offender (be it a "hey you can't do that" warning or an official courtesy warning) and then report the action to the TD.

As to the original question of the thread, I'd stay "dry" at an event if the TD requested it. Of course it would be easy for me since I don't really drink (or partake in any other "activities") on or off the course. I respect any TD that is upfront about that sort of thing and who will follow through on enforcement as well.

To the topic in general, it's really difficult to determine where to draw the line in terms of what the TD/staff can mandate and control and what they can't. Some of the comparisons to other sports fall short because most sports that have a strong media/spectator following also have places for the competitors to go, away from the public eye. There are locker room areas or clubhouses where players can hang out and eat/drink out of view of spectators and cameras. It would be naive to think that a baseball player or a golfer doesn't crack a brew with his post-game meal, or perhaps even with a pre-game meal. He just doesn't do it in on the field/course in full uniform where we can all see (and judge).

Our trouble is that our "clubhouse" for between and post-round activities is usually the parking lot or the picnic pavilion around tournament central. Tough to claim or get any sort of privacy in those areas. For courses in locations in which alcohol consumption is already illegal, there's really no argument. For those that do allow it (or more accurately, don't make an issue of it one way or the other), the lines get very blurry. Perhaps the solution in that case is to designate certain areas in which the "during play" rules exist for the duration of the entire tournament...places like around tournament central or a certain portion of the parking lot. Then invite the media, spectators, and whomever into those areas and still allow for a space where the players can be out of view or at least outside the bounds of the tournament. A space where they can have a beer with lunch if they desire and it's otherwise allowed. Something like that might be the best of all worlds.

[Bill Newman]

why are we afraid to be ourselves? Many discgolfers get a measure of enjoyment from certain vices. These vices are often quite legal/decriminalized where they are enjoyed. Many players are drawn to our sport at least in part, because they can partake while playing....no different then bowling, ball golf, fishing, soft ball and other recreational pursuits.

What if our sport became less popular because of the beliefs of a segment of enthusiasts? (sort of like if the NHL banned fighting)

[Dan Doyle]

newman....

this isnt about allowing people to be themselves.

this is about the ramifications of disc golfers being themselves.

if we drink like fish in a park where alcohol is strictly prohibited and a bureaucrat with an agenda gets a bug up their yip-yo
and makes a stink and a course gets pulled, was it worth allowing disc golfers to be themselves?

call up mike francesca and get his opinion (inside joke to most of you).

[Tim Carter]

I think there are two separate but related issues here:

1. What is allowed by a venue (park rules, state laws, etc). Obviously disc golfers should obey park rules and state and federal laws or we all may suffer from courses getting pulled.

2. What is allowed by a TD in in connection with an event.

I think the second is the issue the OP was/is tackling. So Mr. Newman's points do seem apropos. I have a limited amount of time away from my desk. For me the fun stuff and the disc golf often get squeezed together before it's back to the grind. Maybe this means I am not truly in disc golf for the competition. Maybe it means that those proposing these reforms would rather not have me or players like me at the event. Obviously there are many opportunities to indulge and disc, and it could very well be that tourneys will feature less of that stuff, and maybe it will grow the sport.

[Bill Newman]

Drinking alcohol is legal in FDR park. Come on over and enjoy a tasty beer along with your disc golf. (Just not during PDGA sanctioned rounds...)

see you by the keg at the FDR Freeze fest Ice Bowl 3-2-14



Doyle...."Thats not what I said..."

[Jay Melllo]

I agree with Dan. This has nothing to do with being yourself. It has to do with the reality of our actions as a disc golf community. Now the rest of what I have to say is entirely to due with PUBLIC facilities as private courses can be a little bit more lenient towards imbibement.

As someone who underwent the change from "private citizen" to public official in the middle of building a course, I can attest that appearance is everything.

I used to enjoy a brew at the course while playing. Not anymore. It's not because I care that people see me drinking, its that I care about people associating me drinking with the course (as a public park there is no alcohol consumption allowed and drug use is obliviously prohibited).

Even when green is most likely legalized in a few years, it will still be prohibited in public parks all over the place just like drinking. Why? Because while you certainly have a right to enjoy yourself as a responsible adult, you don't have the right to ruin someone else's enjoyment. Toking a joint while playing hole 7 cause you can't see anyone? Well guess what, a dad and his two young kids on hole 11 can smell it and you are ruining THEIR enjoyment. You might live in town, you might not, but either way you're not going to the town hall asking for the non-smokers to be kicked off the course so you can hold a mobile bong-fest between holes 3-9 cause the groove is nice there, man. The Dad, on the other hand, owns a home right down the road and he'll be calling around Monday morning to ask why the nice town park has been turned into a hippie camp.

Think about it. As much as we don't want to admit it, courses disappear easy. PCC, Charlton Woods, Willow Valley... all gone. Now I understand none of these were because of alcohol and drugs, but it shows how fragile the existence of courses is. If you want a more appropriate example, Cape Cod Community College. A small fraction of people who couldn't go a few hours without lighting up cost the Cape 50% of its courses (almost 100%). Need a refresher?

http://www.capecod.edu/c/document_libra ... upId=33012

http://www.capecod.edu/c/document_libra ... upId=33012

http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs. ... /806280340

http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs. ... /804220332

I'm most likely in line with the majority here. I don't care what you put in your body, its none of my business. But just like you can't make sweet, sweet love to your special lady friend in the middle of a public park despite the fact that its perfectly legal in private, you can't treat courses like they're the quad at UCBoulder on 4/20.

Tourney or no tourney, if we're on a public course we owe it to the other users to treat them and the park we're lucky enough to use with respect.

[Bill Newman]

sheesh.........when did Disc Golfers become the moral majority?!?

like I said before - what if the popularity of DG shrinks cuz of the opinions/mandates/viewpoints of the temperance advocates among us?


Cant wait to get to Colorado in the spring time....

[Jay Melllo]

I don't think that's a reality. Substantial growth in DG will occur when kids can start playing at 6 or 10 year olds because their is a course at their local park and when disc golf is in the "mainstream". How many things associated with getting f'ed up are considered mainstream recreational activities?

Disc golf WILL shrink if we start losing courses because they are considered by the powers that be to be places where people go to get f'ed up.

None of this would be a problem if people just practiced discretion. Want to puff it? Find a nice quiet corner of the course. Don't rip a fattie on hole 15 where the left side rough is abutted by homes.

And carry in carry out. The beer can weighs about 3/4 of a pound less when you're done downing your bud lights (God damn do I hate finding beers cans in trees/on tees/on trails/etc) and you can reduce it's volume to virtually nothing by crushing it. The only reason the trash can is there is because without it the place would look like a frat house floor at 2am on a Saturday.

[Dan Doyle]

newman.....

i dont think any of us are coming from a moral standpoint here. i know i wasnt.

we are coming from a practical standpoint. the town of warwick doesnt give a rats sphincter about anyone's perspective. they only care about enforcing rules and getting their "vig" when it comes to new projects.

let me know when we can visit colorado together.

[Jack Bradley]

And carry in carry out. The beer can weighs about 3/4 of a pound less when you're done downing your bud lights (God damn do I hate finding beers cans in trees/on tees/on trails/etc) and you can reduce it's volume to virtually nothing by crushing it. The only reason the trash can is there is because without it the place would look like a frat house floor at 2am on a Saturday.

I can never reconcile that the guy who likes to have a beer in the woods is the same guy who can just leave the empty bottle there.

[Bill Stewart]

sheesh.........when did Disc Golfers become the moral majority?!?

like I said before - what if the popularity of DG shrinks cuz of the opinions/mandates/viewpoints of the temperance advocates among us?


Cant wait to get to Colorado in the spring time....

Newman, given my respect for unintended consequences, I'm giving more weight to this thought than before. I bet you're right. The problem is this "grow the sport" meme has been around a while, and has taken on a life and identity all it's own.

I tried pretty hard to get my kids into disc golf. It's just not their bag, baby. I think kids are a little too hyper to appreciate the subtle improvements in a muscle memory sport like golf (disc or ball). That, and it's great a "dad takes his kid out to the disc golf course," but it's been my experience that kids like activities that they do with other kids. Not too many 8 year olds where 300' doesn't look like a mile away when considering throwing a frisbee to it.

Most high schoolers I know gravitate towards Ultimate because of the action. Most of the new youngsters I see at the DG course are post-high school age. And most of them like an activity where they can go off and have a beer or a puff, compete, have fun--all the stuff we like to do.

Had an interesting chat with a (bar) regular at Webster Sunday after the challenge. It was along the lines of "what did you guys think when they first approached you to build a disc golf course here?"

Typical "what's disc golf?" answer, but now the guy is hooked, plays 3-4 times a week. Loves his beers while he plays and the money line: "great place to smoke a jibber." (money because I hadn't heard the term 'jibber' in forever).

So while I get the noble view behind the "grow the sport" meme, the reality is that the biggest growth potential for disc golf is still the same people who it's been appealing to since day one: A guy between 21-45 who wants to have a beer and/or smoke a jibber while he plays.

Brad I think the answer lies in the level of the tournament. A-tiers and NT's etc, yes a decorum of professionalism is required. BUT, that's the end point or goal of growing the sport, i.e. to have Chris Berman announce a PDGA tournament on ESPN and McBeth earn $1mm for being the #1 player in the world.

True "growing" of the sport is at the grass roots level. And we're going to continue to have 10x more 23 year-old, bud light-drinking, potheads than 11-year old prodigies who's father takes them to Worlds in Arizona or US Championships in SC.

[Tim Carter]

If the fact that a smell ruins someone's enjoyment of the course is grounds for banning a substance (this is in the hypothetical world of a few years from now that Mr. Mello was describing)... Again I ask what about cigarettes. Smoking (or vaping they were clever enuf to include) ANYTHING is now banned in most parks/ outdoor spaces owned or operated by the City of Boston. Say what you will about the policy, at least it's consistent.

[Andrew McManus]

Well put Jay.

Bill, obviously its not an issue at FDR but that's not the case at the majority of public parks (local, state or federal) here in MA and many other parks I've been to in other states that have DG courses. Right or wrong, it is what it is and if one wishes to ensure the survival of a disc golf course on a public piece of property, its best to err on the side of caution and obey the park rules.

Sorry for the thread drift, this is a topic I am deeply concerned about as I oversee and manage several hundred acres of open space and conservation lands as part of my job. All I want is to establish another course here on the Cape and the best way to do that is to provide assurance to the powers that be that any course that may be established will follow the proper rules and I won't have to worry about a few righteous rec-heads who insist on doing what they want because rules don't apply to their "right to do whatever they want" regardless of who's property they're on. I deal with that shat on a daily basis and quite honestly have no sympathy, empathy or tolerance for it. Wanna do what you want?...find a piece of property where there are no rules and go nuts...more power to ya.

Gouge away.

[Dave Jackson]

This discussion is a good one.
The people chiming in make great points.
Curbing our enthusiasm seems appropriate. I just feel the same way as Tim C. about cigs.

[Matt Stroika]

You don't like the laws? Change them. You couldn't buy beer in MA when I first moved here.

Stewie. Spot on as always my friend.

[Pete Lauber]

Although I agree with Mr. Stewart and with Mr. Newman I think Brad does make a point that deserves some credence. Yes there is no need to be the moral police but when a family is walking through a park and there happens to be a DG tournament going on how we behave will leave an impression. It is true that many players want to "enjoy" the DG experience but why not be somewhat conscience of another’s sensibilities. There is nothing wrong with that. I am not saying that i am perfect in this regard Quick Story: During one of my first tournaments I was given a warning for a putting stance issue. The individual warned me and then sparked a J. As a new player this seemed very strange as I was under the impression there are rules that must be followed during a tournament. I don't see this as a legal vs. Illegal issue rather an issue of paying attention to one's surroundings and understanding that we are not responsible to behave like school children but there is nothing wrong with trying to leave a positive impression during a large gathering for a tournament.

[Jim Bobka]

"(money because I hadn't heard the term 'jibber' in forever)."


HAHAHAHA!! you got THAT right!!

man I can feel the grey hair just sqeaking out of my skull right about now.....


Here's the weird part: Why are they in the process of 'legalizing' pot when they frown upon you smoking it at the same time they want to legalize it?

[Steven Dakai]

Wow, talk about a hot subject!

So this all stemmed from another discussion wich basically boiled down to some folks not being happy with the way the current payouts vs entry fees was being conducted. The solution that was offered was to "attract more sponsors".
Here is the rub...Sponsors want publicity for their money. The easiest way to get that publicity is through main stream media,like newspapers and radio stations. There is no way we can ask a local newspaper or radio station to cover an event with people smoking "jibbas". The beer and the cigs are culturally accepted, therefore immune.
I love to party at events,ask anyone. PDGA events have a certain level of decorum required, but we can still have fun,right?
We should,as someone suggested, make it clear what type of event we are holding and set aside a couple of events each season that would be more strict with rule enforcement. We can invite the media (yes they will come) and even have a few spectators.
As far as the image of disc golfers is concerned, its a lost cause. We are who we are, and that is what we will reamin.
By the way, Tourney 54 includes stops at a bar and a Brewery for both Am players and Pros. Please,no drinking within my view during rounds.

[Titan_Bariloni]

other side of the coin..is DG'ers actually keep lots of rift raft away from said public parks...

that do much worse thangs then smoke a JIB

heck some courses are hot spots for pickle puffing.....esp BUFF..lololol...but really even at Tullz when we were waiting for league one nite...a pickle puffer crew showed up..you could kinda tell they were excited at the turn out of young studsss...then when they figured out we were there for DG league not grab arse..you could kinda see the disappointment in there beatty lil eyes

just saying DG'ers often uphold real MORALS...and yeah sometimes it is while smoking a JIB

quick story the day before the decriminalization in MA years ago..I was smoking a JIB...yes on HOLE 1 at Tulllz...taking in the great scene of the lake and yes watching for FAMS and casuals to tell them all about DG....while sitting there the landscaper moron had some crappppy lawnmowers juts leaking smoke into the air...I thought WTF dude...and then to my disbelieve he actually approached me and said "HEY,...stop polluting the air with that dope"..no BS exact words...the same guy who also told me he feeds disc he finds at Barre to his dog cuz DG is dumb....

the point

morals are open to perception....do what you feel is right and someone will always think it is wrong...so man up and set some morals you think are legit for your OWN life...live by them..sometimes they change..don't preach them though..just practice them!\

dope,boooze,and cigs are not holding DG back from some next level....sitting here discussing every F'in Winter the same DUMB shart then doing nothing IS!!!!!!!!

read the rockets tag line....DO something,anything!

[James Sweat]

[
morals are open to perception....do what you feel is right and someone will always think it is wrong...so man up and set some morals you think are legit for your OWN life...live by them..sometimes they change..don't preach them though..just practice them!\

dope,boooze,and cigs are not holding DG back from some next level....sitting here discussing every F'in Winter the same DUMB shart then doing nothing IS!!!!!!!!

read the rockets tag line....DO something,anything![/quote]

amen!

[Todd Eddy]

Pickle puffer made me laugh, albeit quietly to myself. Good one Mista 3 Putt.