Cross Farms

[Paul Oechsli]

A couple weeks too late for this idea, but:

Cross Farms NCAA Bracket Pool: 50% of the $ collected to the course, 50% paid out to winners. Can run it on CBSSporstline for free. Use PayPal (with a surcharge) to collect entry fees.


NFL Survivor Pool: Same concept 50/50 sharing.

If well marketed could get probably a lot of NEFA participation from afar.

[Eric Maurer]

200 bucks = 2 large trees or 4 small ones on hole 14...TOTALLY I Freaking hate that hole. But I wouldn't want to take down too many there.

I can think of one in particular.

[Les Sinnock]

We re-packed the tee boxes with stone dust yesterday.

Try to kick the stone dust back and level it for the next few days until it packs in correctly.

The rain should help it to settle and pack to a concrete like substance.

Remember, no good deed will go unpunished.

[Shawn Mullen]

I'd love to get league going again too, problem is I can't reliably get there on Wednesdays for another couple weeks.

[Karl Molitoris]

Actually Eric and Tim, when 14 was first "born", it was near impossible to even attempt a deuce putt on the hole. It was an accurate drive just past the rivlet, a hyzer approach, and if good enough, a drop in 3. The sting of that hole has definately been taken away (by the removal of the junk on the left and a few trees). Let's not make it TOO easy! Can't a hole have any dignity.

Karl

[Chris Bunce]

Tolland Disc Golf patches are in and look SWEEEEEET.

Shawn Mullen and (soon) I will be selling them for $5, track us down and support Cross Farms, we're raising money for TEEPADS. Or I'm sure we could work out some sort of mailing situation if you're interested in getting one but don't want to see our ugly mugs.



Sexy, right? Get one (or 30) of your own and support Cross Farms Disc Golf!

[Aaron Cotnoir]

Put me down for two.

[Jay Bayer]

Actually Eric and Tim, when 14 was first "born", it was near impossible to even attempt a deuce putt on the hole. It was an accurate drive just past the rivlet, a hyzer approach, and if good enough, a drop in 3. The sting of that hole has definately been taken away (by the removal of the junk on the left and a few trees). Let's not make it TOO easy! Can't a hole have any dignity.

Karl

Can't a hole also have a fairway?

[Eric Desmarais]

2nd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Karl Molitoris]

Jay,

Sure a hole can have a fairway...but why does it have to lead straight to the basket every time? And why does it have to only take 1 shot?

What was wrong with a very tight 160' shot followed by (IF you're in the aforementioned fairway) another 160' shot to the target?

Karl

Ps: Y'all with the mindset of "If I can throw 380', ALL holes that are 380' or less should be birdie-able" need to go to other parts of the country to see some super holes which might be a controlled-distanced 220' drive followed by a laser-straight approach of 150' (par 4) to set up a birdie attempt; anything less than stellar and you're scrambling for a par.

[Allen Smith]

Karl do you suggest that hole 14 achieves what you have described?

I just think that luck gets more threes on that hole that skill does.

I've had good throws that end up with horrible lines, and horrible throws that end up in the middle of the fairway.

I've played a lot of play-to-a-spot par 4s, and (I think) luck is much more of a factor on Xfarms hole 14 than most of the others I've played.[/quote]

[Karl Molitoris]

Allen,

Cross Farms' hole 14 USED to be that type of hole.
If I anhy'd a putter about 160' (right into that little rivlet, just to the left of the center-line in the dirt road / path) I'd have another perfect little anhy'd putter shot of about 160' (or a RHBH hyzer for most) to the green. Anything 'less than perfect' would STILL leave me with a shot to the green, but it would be either 1) a tighter, similar line or 2) a totally different line not a open as taking the dirt road option.

Now it IS a 'poke and hope' - of the type where you CAN (if really lucky) get to the green in 1 or can 'hit something along the way', get a wicked bad kick, and be in serious goop. BUT, I'm saying that YOU are the person who 'got you there' (in the goop) and YOU gave yourself the bad kick (by using a driver, etc.). If one plays the hole as originally intended, one very, very rarely gets worse than a 4.
I can't remember the last time I was further than 40' in 2 on that hole - but that may be because I play it the way I stated earlier. Most 3's...but when I miss a putt, a 4.

As for your...

"I've had good throws that end up with horrible lines, and horrible throws that end up in the middle of the fairway."

...you can say that about ANY wooded disc golf hole, not just XFarms' 14; that's dg!


Karl

[Shawn Mullen]

We need to put in an alt tee on that hole (or move that tee all together). It's a longer shot left to right line, almost straight back into the wood from 13's basket is where the tee is. We've played it at league a few times. A more fair line that is still a challenge. 14 is the only hole on the course I feel is unfair. Too much throw and hope involved.

[Karl Molitoris]

Shawn,

What's "unfair" about it?

Karl

Ps: And I'll 'show my hand' (just to let you know I'm not holding anything) by saying the entire sport of dg is "unfair" - in that anytime you get a "kick" off a tree, it may (or may not) put you in a really bad spot...and once you let the disc go, you have NO control over it!

Scenario:
Player A 'hits the gap'...and is clean.
Player B 'hits a gap-border tree' just to the gap side (of the tree) and deflects across the fairway into deep crap.
Player C 'hit the gap-border tree' squarely and drops straight down.

Player A is cool (great). Player C has a straddle shot (not bad). Player B is dead'r than a doornail.
You can't tell me Player C threw a "better shot" than Player B (the former "missed" the gap by more - thus a 'poorer shot'). But that's not how it turned out. Luck DOES exist in dg...live with it.

Crap happens.
If you don't want to get 'crapped on' maybe you should play more conservatively!

[Shawn Mullen]

What is unfair about it is you can close your eyes and throw straight and get the same results as when you try to "shape" that line. There isn't much skill involved at all in that. I've used the "meow" option before that you mentioned and often times end up with a three or a four. I'd rather throw straight and hope for the best, this will get me a two once in a while. You can't get a two nearly as easily from the stream as you can from on the green. If you just poke and hope a straight shot that is the best option. Not a good hole. I just think there are a couple better options for tee locations that make this a much better shot. I agree with you about luck being involved in disc golf but this hole is 80% luck 20% skill.

[Chris Bunce]

Glad I brought this thread back to life.

[Stephen Ditter]

As NEFA turns.

-ditterman

[Jeff laterreur]

i dont have a issue with 14 i just throw understable high and to the right but if we wan to make it easyer we can move the tee a foot or two to the right and maybe clear one or two trees.

[Allen Smith]

sure luck exists in disc golf (and ball golf, and baseball, and basketball...) but no game of skill should involve what is essentially a roll of the dice.

Not to mention luck can't be that much of a factor when you have a 12 time world champion and an elite half dozen or so players that win every national tour event. Is Climo just luckier than the rest of us?

For hole 14, I would say that most of the times that I had a well thrown tee shot, I wouldn't know if the shot was actually good until I got down there and looked at my lines to the basket. I don't think that Climo's best shots would elicit a much different result (alright, good hyzer...now lets see if I have a line) and that is the problem I see with the hole.

[Shawn Mullen]

i dont have a issue with 14 i just throw understable high and to the right but if we wan to make it easyer we can move the tee a foot or two to the right and maybe clear one or two trees.

Through the 1ft wide jay bayer gap?

Moving it a little to the right or left isn't a really good option either. I'll show you where I think a better location is for the tee. It doesn't make the hole easier, but less of a poke and hope shot.

[Shawn Mullen]

As NEFA turns.

-ditterman

My favorite soap opera. And I thought there was a popcorn guy emoticon available.

[Karl Molitoris]

Allen,

Don't 'sway' the argument by bringing in unrelated / twisting information. Climo is a many time WC because he probably hits the 'gap' more times than anyone else...not because he is "lucky" or "unlucky" more so. When he hits (the rare) a tree, he also has NO control over where it goes.

Shawn,

Initially, NO ONE could 'just throw' (poke and hope) and get to the green. One had to throw virtually the perfect RHBH anhy with an overstable driver to navigate the narrow "S" fairway / dirt road to get to the green in one (if they chose).
But then someone / somepeoples couldn't execute this shot to their frequency of liking (read: they weren't Climo-like) and weren't smart enough to "throw to the creek, throw to the green, make a putt, get out with your 3", so they hacked and chopped to try to make more lanes to "get a deuce" (like they believe EVERY hole (that they COULD throw long enough to get to) HAS to give up a birdie to them)...and you have what we have now...a hole with SEVERAL lanes...and you call that a poke and hope.

I call it a raping of a perfectly good hole because some people couldn't get their birdies .

If people want to move the tee, so be it - but it won't necessarily make it a more "fair" hole...just one that people will be able to birdie more (I'm sure of it) .

Karl

[Chris Bunce]

Just get a RHFH. Anhyzer flick to the left of the tree on the right that'll turn hard and fade back past the trees on the left. Guaranteed 3, occasional deuce.

I think 14 is one of the signature holes at Cross Farms. And... it gives the members of Team Tolland an advantage during team challenges, because even if we don't know how to play it, we know better than those visiting.

[Allen Smith]

Allen,

Climo is a many time WC because he probably hits the 'gap' more times than anyone else...not because he is "lucky" or "unlucky" more so. When he hits (the rare) a tree, he also has NO control over where it goes.

This is actually the point that I was trying to make... good disc golfers should be rewarded for hitting fairways. The reward on a par 4 should be a good position for a second shot, not a 50/50 chance of being in a good position for a second shot. As I understand that luck is involved I would even say that a reward for a good tee shot on a par 4 is a high probability of being in a good position for a second shot.

What I described in the above post is actually meant for hole 13... I've played that course one time in the past year, so I got a little confused. Sorry everybody, sorry.

On hole 14, I can jump-putt a disc to that creek, in my mind a jump-putt to a spot for an upshot just doesn't make a good hole.

[Les Sinnock]

I guess I should say something here, although I'll probably get trounced for doing so.

There is a triangular gap in the center of the fairway around the stream. This didn't used to be there as an option a year or so back. Since I took down that tree in the middle, I've found that the hole is a lot more two to three-able than before, but it does require an accurate throw.
I don't want to remove too much there for fear that the hole will become too short and there isn't much room for lengthening due to the proximity of hole three. The tee could be moved back a tiny bit, but not much more without impacting 12 and 13.
I am planning to remove a couple of other trees on the right side of the fairway to create an alternative line.
I would agree with Karl though that throwing a big driver will more often than not result in a tree hit. A midrange is all that is necessary to get on the green. The hole is just not that long to begin with.

[Karl Molitoris]

Allen,

OK - no problem on the confusion part.

That it's (for you) a big jump putt - for a drive - is, I understand, a bit "different" than what we (today's dg players) are used to, but it is BECAUSE of that "different" factor that I REALLY liked the hole when Les and Dave first put it in!

We have a LOT of holes which are "let the dawgs out" type of holes, but VERY few "finesse" holes. Doesn't mean they're not a good hole, just "different" (and it actually shows you how to "manage" your game and goads you into throwing big - paying big if not accurate).

I just believe there is a need to ensure accuracy is "kept in the game, even off the tee" and if this means throwing in a couple of less-than-full-throw-type tee shots in the mix, so be it. And this coming from someone who isn't exactly the shortest thrower....

Karl

[Shawn Mullen]

Allen,

Don't 'sway' the argument by bringing in unrelated / twisting information. Climo is a many time WC because he probably hits the 'gap' more times than anyone else...not because he is "lucky" or "unlucky" more so. When he hits (the rare) a tree, he also has NO control over where it goes.

Shawn,

Initially, NO ONE could 'just throw' (poke and hope) and get to the green. One had to throw virtually the perfect RHBH anhy with an overstable driver to navigate the narrow "S" fairway / dirt road to get to the green in one (if they chose).
But then someone / somepeoples couldn't execute this shot to their frequency of liking (read: they weren't Climo-like) and weren't smart enough to "throw to the creek, throw to the green, make a putt, get out with your 3", so they hacked and chopped to try to make more lanes to "get a deuce" (like they believe EVERY hole (that they COULD throw long enough to get to) HAS to give up a birdie to them)...and you have what we have now...a hole with SEVERAL lanes...and you call that a poke and hope.

I call it a raping of a perfectly good hole because some people couldn't get their birdies .

If people want to move the tee, so be it - but it won't necessarily make it a more "fair" hole...just one that people will be able to birdie more (I'm sure of it) .

Karl

I do call it a poke and hope because when I birdie it that's how I do it. Overstable mid range slight anhyzer shot up the gut (LHBH).....and HOPE it gets through. If it gets knocked down I get a three...maybee a four.

And Bunce I agree with you about it an advantage to us.

Les, I think you know where the other tee placement I'm talking about could be.

[Eric Desmarais]

After reading this I started thinking about "no LEGITIMATE fairway holes throuhgout(sp?) New England.
Off the top of my head there only comes to mind 2 courses that have holes that (for MOST disc golfers) dont have legitimate fairways.
Holyoke's 11 and 12 , and X-farms 14.
Rindge-none
Wick-none
Pyramids-none
Maple Hill-none
Buff-none(all 27)
Panthorn-none
Cranberry-none
Crane Hill-none
Conway-none
Pinnacle-none
N.Calais-none
Randolph-none
Waterbury-none
Bennington-none
Northampton-none
W.Thompson-none
Amesbury-none
The list could go on ad infinitum......
Point is unless your a competitive AM 1 or better you aint got a plan or LEGITIMATE toss on the hole.Every hole on 99% of the courses I've played have a readable shot or plan of attack.I'm sure one exsists for hole 14 at X-farms and 11 and 12 at Holyoke but NOT to the majority of players.These holes are anomalies(sp?).They have their place and overall I can deal with them,besides everyone has to throw the hole regardless of skill,ability,or intellect.So it FAIR.Fair and enjoyable or preferential are not synonamous.I don't know if you can pick up on it or not KARL, but most folks aren't feelin 14 at X-farms.Not everyone that plays D.G. were competitive track and feild Javellin throwers that Tomahawk alot.So YOUR plan , read , and play of the hole can't possibly negate the majority.Your a smart , nice , sucsessfull guy, but reality is MOST people step up to 14 and scatch their heads.
Oh by the way I actually like the hole.NOT because of its layout but because its an "equalizer" in my book, meaning (maybe not Klimo) but most AVERAGE players have the same chance regardless of skill of doing great or terrible on it.
My 2 cents.

[Karl Molitoris]

Eric,

So it FAIR.Fair and enjoyable or preferential are not synonamous.

Never said "fair" equalled either of those two. Just "arguing" the 'fair' part of it! Preferential (as is beauty) is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't know if you can pick up on it or not KARL, but most folks aren't feelin 14 at X-farms.

I can (pick up on it), and don't mind being in the minority. But, in this case, I'm figuring that the minority isn't wrong!

Not everyone that plays D.G. were competitive track and feild Javellin throwers that Tomahawk alot.

Didn't ever THINK of throwing an overhand there! To me - initially - the "line" was TOTALLY clear the 1st time I ever stepped up to the box. I knew that I couldn't hit it (didn't have an anhy backhand then and even if I did, I knew most of the time I'd never pure it) but marvelled at the insight that Les and Dave had to "see the potential" to really separate the men from we boys. Climo, yes; most NEFA players, nope*. But now that they've "cleaned paths" every which way possible, it IS a P&H.

So YOUR plan , read , and play of the hole can't possibly negate the majority.

Maybe it can. Maybe most other players either are more of a gambler than me or are "blinded by the birdie" syndrome....

Oh by the way I actually like the hole.NOT because of its layout but because its an "equalizer" in my book, meaning (maybe not Klimo) but most AVERAGE players have the same chance regardless of skill of doing great or terrible on it.

There! At least we can agree (on one point) as to why 14 is a good hole (although it WAS better 3 years ago ).

Karl

*And I personally LOVE seeing people get all twisted in knots because their inability to hit-a-line...and then complain it's "unfair". To them I say 'No dummy, it's not "unfair", you're just not good enough to hit it consistently. Live with it! You don't hear REALLY good players say things (like that) are "unfair"; they just practice more.'
Rant Off.

Ps: And there's nothing wrong with having a player "think"...even if he only draws blanks - keeps him humble and not so full of himself!

Pps: Yeh, a slow day in the office....

[Les Sinnock]

Its hard to keep everybody happy.
Some people want it one way, some another. Everybody second guesses.