Buff Redesign

[Felix Harvey]

Yaskis you sound like a bossy pants. A young inexperienced bossy pants. I've been playing for longer than you've been alive, and I still can't throw it over where I'm supposedly supposed to be able to learn how.

The old 16 is better than the new 9, period.

P.S. your slow responses to my offers of help early on made it clear that you weren't very inclusive, so get over the fact that you don't have it all worked out by yourself. It's a public course, be more inclusive and less controlling.

[Mark Valis]

Everyone in my AM1 group made it over by a minimum of 25 ft. The hole should stay period. The amount of work and $ that would go into building a set of stairs up to Old 16 would be far better spent on other areas of the course. I think this hole is far more challenging than the old 16 , now you not only have to carry the water but in most cases throw your second shot out over the water to get to the hole in most cases. This hole position should be for Pro and AM1 divisions.

[Jeff Woodcock]

is hole 9 a par 4? i forget. as am AM2, who could maybe clear the water, i love the hole. just because i can't throw it over the water doesn't mean i think the hole should change. for ams, the short tee works great, as a par 3. it is a very challenging hole that will only improve your game the more you play it. this hole reminds me of hole 1 at maple hill(another great hole). i loved watching the pros at the vibram open throw off that tee over the water. don't change a thing! if you can't make it over the water play from the drop zone and play it a par three.

[Kevin Gardner]

Did I say I couldn't get it over??

The amount of work and $ that would go into building a set of stairs up to Old 16 would be far better spent on other areas of the course.

True.

[David Stidham]

Everyone in my AM1 group made it over by a minimum of 25 ft. The hole should stay period. The amount of work and $ that would go into building a set of stairs up to Old 16 would be far better spent on other areas of the course. I think this hole is far more challenging than the old 16 , now you not only have to carry the water but in most cases throw your second shot out over the water to get to the hole in most cases. This hole position should be for Pro and AM1 divisions.

You have got to be kidding. Who could possibly prefer new 9 over old 16??? Sure, 9 is challenging and it takes a great shot to clear OB. But what else does it have? Not much else. But old 16--wow! The elevation. The scenery. The suspense. What a thrill to throw one out over the water anticipating if it will land dry. And there are several ways to approach it. A big hyser over the lake or a big anheiser. What about when the lake is frozen. You won't get the disc dancing and sailing on the ice from 9 as you get from old 16. Even from the am tee the possibilities are varied and challenging. New 9 has about one way to go-over the lake (and more than not in the lake). And new 9 am tee is pretty boring. Talking about Maple Hill 1, what about trying to land one on old 16 onto the green! Yea. You gotta be crazy not to love old 16 over just about any hole around. Gotta build those steps!

[M.P. Morse III]

It is a challenge so work on mechanics and practice until you get it over. If you dont want to lose a disc go to the drop zone, plain and simple.

thats what i said...

The amount of work and $ that would go into building a set of stairs up to Old 16 would be far better spent on other areas of the course.

yeah its hard to argue that one....

either way, both hole layouts are incredible... i love taking people out on the new layout and getting to 9's teepad

and yes, Kevin gets it over... left handed even

[Joe Yaskis]

Felix
You are truely an ignorant person who obviously is selfish.
Thanks for calling me inexperienced, YOUNG, and handsome.
Hole 9 am 2 pad and below is a mere 273 to the basket. You claim to have been playing longer than I have been alive so you have had 32 years to work on a 273ft shot. If you cant throw that far by now, please retire.
Hole 9 pro tee is a different strory.
You also claim that I was not inclusive to all for the redesign process.
Here is a list of the work/design days that you did not attend and dont tell me you did not know when they were because they were listed on Nefa.com

Fleix here are the days you chose not show and help or offer advice, but then complain later
May 15
May 31
June 12
June 14
June 21
July 31
September 8
Sept 18th
Selpt 20th.
Please continue to play at a crappy course, not Buff.
Build the stairs, I dont care. enjoy.

[Tim Russell]

Stairs to the old 16 would cost thousands in materials. And who would build it and build it to code? By next FY our project operations and maintenance funds will be slashed in half. We probibly won't have a full staff and we'll be lucky to fund O&M contracts.

Bottom line is Old 16 was a great hole. It is no longer an official hole. It is highly unlikely anyone is going to build new steps to the old 16, I just don't see it happening. I have tried to get steps built in other places with no luck. We still need steps to replace the missing lower set at the inlet. If someone wants to build steps I need detailed engineering drawings with rise and tread depth to code, materials list and a written proposal that I will have to submit to our geotech engineers for approval. I am not against, I just don't see it happening. You are more than welcome to walk down the path and up the ramp and shoot from that tee. If you take short cuts from 9 to 16 up the rip rap it will be $50.

The last big improvement before winter is to have a stump grinder come in and hit all the areas where trees were taken down.

Next seasons plan is to finalize tee locations and finish them off and freshen up the old 3-13 to be the new mini course i.e. new signs and repair tees.

[Joe Yaskis]

Sounds good Tim.
I think stairs would be cool, but who has that type of cash? Who will build those to CODE?
Felix, wish you the best.
If anyone has extra thousands lying around let Tim know.

[Kevin Gardner]

I think stairs would be cool, but who has that type of cash? Who will build those to CODE?.

Yup.

[Jeff Burrows]

You have got to be kidding. Who could possibly prefer new 9 over old 16???

I agree with Stidham. Old 16 was awesome. I used to go to Buff 2-3 times a week, warm up a little, and then start on old 16 and play the outback 9 finishing with basket 18. Having the first shot of the day from way up on the dam overlooking the lake, and having to throw a huge hyzer out over the lake and back to land was always a nail biter risk reward. Sometimes I wouldn't know till the last second if my disc would hit land. Plus the wind was always in your face and making your disc flatten out or turn right towards the water even more. That really messed with you. I miss that. To me that was the best hole in central MA. It's too bad we can't get that hole back. A couple of times recently, I've walked up on the dam to play #9 from old #16's tee. We play this sport for fun, so if it isn't a tourny, play it from up there, who cares. It's a 3 min or so walk to that tee if you walk the legal way around the rip rap.

The new Buff is much different, but a good course. Once it gets trampled, cleaned, and stumps ground then we can probably play our shots on the new holes a little further away from the rip rap. That'll give a little more room to play the wind and keep away from the OB. I think it will be much more pleasant to play there. I like the new #9 also, it just isn't nearly as good as old 16. But you can't get mad at the things you can't control, so I'm moving on to the new layout.
Thanks Joe Yaskis and Co. for putting all that work in getting it together for everyone.

[Andy_Harris]

Thanks for calling me inexperienced, YOUNG, and handsome.

i don't think anyone said handsome...

anyways, the new layout is great, finally got a chance to play it a few weeks ago. i also like the old 16 better than the new 9, but it's not realistic to think anyone is going to walk up to the old 16 tee just to play that hole. and, if i had to choose between the old 16 and all of the new holes on the other side of the dam, i like the course better the way it is now (by a mile). and the new 9 really isn't that long to be in bounds. people seem to be complaining a lot about the length of new holes compared to the old ones. people are throwing longer, discs fly further, buff needed some longer holes. the only thing playing a course that isn't long enough is doing for your game is keeping you from learning to throw further.

[David Stidham]

i also like the old 16 better than the new 9, but it's not realistic to think anyone is going to walk up to the old 16 tee just to play that hole.

To me that was the best hole in central MA. It's too bad we can't get that hole back. A couple of times recently, I've walked up on the dam to play #9 from old #16's tee. We play this sport for fun, so if it isn't a tourny, play it from up there, who cares. It's a 3 min or so walk to that tee if you walk the legal way around the rip rap.

Bottom line is Old 16 was a great hole. It is no longer an official hole. It is highly unlikely anyone is going to build new steps to the old 16. I am not against, I just don't see it happening. You are more than welcome to walk down the path and up the ramp and shoot from that tee. If you take short cuts from 9 to 16 up the rip rap it will be $50.

I'm all for stairs up to old 16. To be honest, the new hole 9 is ridiculous. even if you DO get over, you generally have an unfavorable lie and it's just ugh. All risk no reward.
Plus, old 16 was a staple hole of the course. Would be awesome to bring that back...

Why didn't I see this before--how stupid of me! It was there all along. We can keep old #16, and have new #9 too!! Play new #9 thru new #15, then play old #16 and old #17, then continue with new #16. The best of both courses! That would make a 20 hole course too. What could be better? During tournaments there would be a back up on new #9 and 0ld #16, but I could just eliminated new #9 during tournaments. OK then---the steps can wait.

[Joe Yaskis]

Dave
You are in love with 16.
What does that hole have?
Sure it has elevation, but not much else.
People have deuced it and I have seen several people throw it by the basket.
New 9 demands a great drive, great approach for a 3. Anyone could 3 old 16 with an awful drive.


Next Year's layout for tourneys
If you play the 20 hole layout next year, people will be really mad and it will only cause a massive back up, just like the old course where you made people play 18 then go to 19.

I will be running an event at Buff this Summer, strickly PDGA, we will be playing new hole 9 and the new course. I will need a crew of volunteers to run a smooth event. I plan on making it a B tier, by adding cash to it from local shops etc.

In closing I say build those stairs!

[Kevin Silvia]

Just want to say the new course is way better than the old, in my opinion. It flows better, the new holes are great, the changed holes are all better than their old counterparts, and old hole 15 is no longer a part of my life.

Hated that hole!

For whatever it's worth, I thought I'd offer that I don't miss the walk to the old #16 tee box. I remember feeling bitchy about all the walking whenever I finally got to that tee box ... and now the new peninsula hole (9) just opens up in front of you after the previous hole, with way less fuss. And you know what? The peninsula is still incredibly beautiful, no matter where you drive from. I don't miss the old tee box.

Delighted by the replacements of old holes ... lots of those old holes weren't doing it for me ... and the new ones are great, with lots of good variety. And the changes to the old holes are great, I really have zero complaints.

After following this thread all summer I was prepared for the worst. But I'm here to say there's another couple golfers who are beyond satisfied with the results.

Thank you so much to everyone who contributed to this massive redesign effort. Great work!!

[Matt Heenan]

The opinion of the people Dave.

[David Stidham]

Joe wrote to me:

You are in love with 16.

Oh, no, not me. Personally I hated old #16. I could never get over the rocks, or else landed directly behind the first tree. Terrible.

But, besides the one or two people like me who could never get over the rocks, or the one or two like you who throw past the polehole, old #16 was the BEST, the BEST for 99.9% of the other players who play at Buffumville. How could that 99.9% (the "people" who play Buffumville every day) not love it?

Now, talking about being in love--no secret there!

[Jason Southwick]

I got a big mouth and think I know everything so here's a little perspective. Joe, if you ever get interested in girls again, tell me you're gonna bring your new girl and make her play this new hole over the water. "Go to the drop zone," you'll have to tell her. It'll be like sending her back to the car for beers. You will not get laid that night.

Back when Billy Mac and I discovered Buff, this 20-year-old Michigan kid named Brian Longcore, who worked as an intern at Buff, lived briefly in the office, and designed the original Buffumville Disc Golf Course, came to Pyramids. He said he'd designed a little course in Oxford, and Billy Mac and I went out there and our faces fell off it was so beautiful.

It was the first course around that taught people how to throw far, while having mostly an excellent design with great variety, and may still be the busiest course in Mass, or maybe tied with Borderland.

We met David Stidham, who became the course's driving force. Brent was soon on the scene, playing to the 4x4s the Army Corp had lodged firmly in the ground for targets.

The one hole we thought wasn't a good hole was one that sounds a lot like this new hole where you're on the OTHER, other side of the lake and have to throw back somewhere to old 16's fairway. Old 16, BTW, was Buff's signature hole. No? Yes. For years. Anyway, Stidham nixed the hole over the water after our little conversation, and all of us, including the original designer, were in agreement. Design is where inclusiveness begins, because risk should be something we choose to take. Asking normal people to throw that far....

Throwing that distance over that water is like 8 at Maple Hill. Scares recreational golfers away. And who really wants to either have to learn to throw 270 or whatever it is with no bailout, or, with great shame, go to the drop zone immediately, or AFTER your tee shot descends to the murky depths like a Molitoris in a wetsuit.

Hey, but you had to go out there which meant you HAD to come back. How else were you supposed to do it? But let's please drop the "people gotta learn to throw that far" poop. Make it fun and fair. That's what Harold ultimately says about course design. I say aim for the middle, but make it so the best players win by a lot.

Sometimes you make all the best decisions and still wind up throwing over the parking lot.

If it were a science, it'd be easy.

[Kevin Silvia]

I agree that the new #9 pro tee is a bit much, although I was tempted to try it.

But ultimately I just used the AM pad, and walked right past the pro pad that requires the 330' shot to stay dry. I never really used the pro pads on the old design that much anyway.

Is it the long walk to and from old 15, and then the steep climb up the concrete steps, and then throwing off the dam wondering if your kinetic energy's going to send you yourself down onto the rocks ... that makes old 16 so exciting? I thought it was the stunning view of that peninsula ... which is still there even when you tee off from below.

It's a very hard tee box with a very reasonable alternate, what's the problem? There's lots of pro tees I just don't even bother with.

I just want to suggest that it's classic resistance to change, and that the new hole is reasonable. Old pro tee #1, for example, was never all that appealing to me for the same reasons people don't like new pro tee #9: nobody likes risking a sunk disc. So throw from the AM pad!

The new AM pad is cool, and it's and less of a journey with the new design than 16 was ... I don't see what the fuss is about. Not that different really.

[Jeff Burrows]

If anyone wants to join me, I'll be at Buff tomorrow at 10:00 AM in the middle of the NorEaster. It's supposed to be 2 in of rain and 25 mph wind. I'm going to try to clear the water from new #9 tee with every disc in my bag.
Or should this be under "Happenings/Hookups"?

[Joe Yaskis]

Jeff and Jason
Thaks for the feedback.
I kind of like all the talk that hole 9 is getting, its like a celebrity getting mostly bad press that ultimately makes it famous one day.
So far its 50/50 people like it, people hate it.
Jason
When I do get a girl I will make her throw from the am tee, the way the hole is intended to be played for amatures.
I'll agree that old 16 was really cool to look at, I think the view on the new 9 is really cool as well.
Jason
Have you played the new layout?
Take care all and enjoy your weekend.

[Jeff Burrows]

Joe,
Any chance you could make the #9 AM tee halfway up the gravel path to the drop zone. That way people playing the AM tee would still have to clear some water and could play #9 the way you had intended it in your course design. It could be a par 4 and the AMs could bite off as much of the H2O as they wanted for risk/reward. The current AM tee at the drop zone is kinda lame for AMs that can throw pretty far, just not consistantly or accurately enough for the Pro tee pad. You could make it a natural tee with flags if you had to, or get a mat.

Stidham,
If Joe can't get an AM tee on that path, you should consider doing that for your tourneys. That would be the best of both worlds and make everyone happy. And the guy who'd have to build the 75 feet of stairs could take a day off and play some golf.

Personally, I have to disc down from the Pro #9 tee pad so I don't go too far. I throw my Ryhno 400 ft, so I couldn't care either way.

[Jeff Burrows]

Here's 2 more ideas, if anyone cares.
Idea#1 - Instead of building wooden stairs, make natural stone stairs up to the top of the ndam, like the stone steps at hole #1 at Hodges Dam that traverse from the long tee down to the fairway.
Idea #2 - If the AM tee can't be on the trail, go along the trail towards the drop zone maybe 50 - 100 ft, then build a short staircase (10 ft) and then a small decklike platform over the rip rap. Would be way less $$ and effort than building stairs all the way up top.
Idea #3 (best idea) - like I said before, have the AM tee down on the gravel path, half way between the pro tee and the drop zone.

[Joe Yaskis]

Jeff
I think your idea on hole 9, moving it along the path so peole can still throw over the water, is a great idea. The only down side to that is winter is comming. The water/ice level actually exceeds the path itself during the winter months. The new am pad that you propose would be buried under water/ice.
This is the reason why the am pad is located on the grass.

[Kevin Silvia]

Thanks for that info on the AM pad placement choice! I really enjoyed it when I played it.

Is crossing to the peninsula an issue when the water level rises? Just wondering.

[Jeff Burrows]

Jeff
I think your idea on hole 9, moving it along the path so peole can still throw over the water, is a great idea. The only down side to that is winter is comming. The water/ice level actually exceeds the path itself during the winter months. The new am pad that you propose would be buried under water/ice.
This is the reason why the am pad is located on the grass.

That makes a lot of sense, Joe. I didn't remember the winter water/ice level being over that path last Dec/Jan/Feb, but you've been at Buff many more winters than me. It definately covered it in late Mar/early April, but then again that entire peninsula that hole 9 plays on was under water.
I think I'll throw from the drop zone anyway this winter. The combination of cold hands and heavy clothing makes it difficult to throw long (although frozen lake = easy to retrieve discs).

That might be a good thing to consider for future tournaments at Buff, whether run by Stidham or yourself. Move that pad onto the path 1/2 way down, or leave the pad for the drop area and let people tee from the natural surface 1/2 way down the path. Make the AM tee a decent challenge to cross the water. Even if it's 150 ft to cross from there, it might mess with people psychologically. AMs and Pros will try to bite off more water and throw down the shoreline and hyzer back, it'll be a true risk/reward for everyone again. Hole 9 will play like you intended it to and no one will cry about the long Pro tee, or old 16 being gone.
Buffumville will have it's signiature hole back.

[Joe Yaskis]

Would love to get out here and play on Saturday. Anyone interested?

[Kevin Gardner]

Would love to get out here and play on Saturday. Anyone interested?

Possibly what time?

[Kevin Gardner]

I'll be there around noon

[Kevin Gardner]

Strike that, more like 1