NEFA DISCussion

Karl Molitoris wrote:While I'm not saying that there aren't some similarities (to the two scenarios), I think they are mutually exclusive enough to consider the potential differences...

Vibram Open: You miss the cut. You don't "split" because a) you planned on playing Sunday, just weren't good enough, b) traveled a LONG way to play and there's nothing else to do (you can't get home for the local league, etc.), c) you pooled with buddies and they ARE playing, and d) you have a chance to see some of the world's dg'er best.

NEFA Finals: You miss the cut. You split because a) you didn't do as well as you'd have liked, b) you CAN get home for the local league, c) you didn't pool, and d) you are NOT going to see a Climo or a Feldberg that Sunday.

For a lot of people - especially AMs - it's "not about the prizes", it's about the atmosphere (of a tournament setting), the competition (and potentially 1 small round isn't "enough" bang for the day / 2-days), etc.
IFFFFF there was a way to ensure all people played a LOT of dg (medal or match), THAT would be the best of all worlds.

Karl

In match play finals, all positions would need to be played out. It would not be a one and done situation. The only way it works though is that there be a big enough difference in 'prize' between the places and the condition that if you DNF, you forfeit any winnings which could then be thrown back into the pot for that division.

If it's not single-elimination (and not a round-robin), then - I'm guessing?! - there would need be some sort of system to determine "who plays whom among the 1-0's and 0-1's the second round, the 2-0's, 1-1's, and 0-2's the third round, etc.
Not saying this couldn't be done BUT if 2 things come to mind (to consider if / when this is debated around):

1) If 9-hole matches, one 9 will be easier for x against y while the other 9 not so much (the "horses for courses" syndrome), and
2) "I could've gone further if the TD didn't like x and paired me up against him..."

Unless there are some sort of "straight seedings" - where once the seedings are done, NO changing of seeding numbers (at all) take place...then the high of that "score" will always play the low, etc. Ps: and if a middle DNFs, you STILL don't change the seeding #s; someone just gets a lucky bye.

But I'm sure they'll still be some grump'in....

Karl

Karl Molitoris wrote:If it's not single-elimination (and not a round-robin), then - I'm guessing?! - there would need be some sort of system to determine "who plays whom among the 1-0's and 0-1's the second round, the 2-0's, 1-1's, and 0-2's the third round, etc.
Not saying this couldn't be done BUT if 2 things come to mind (to consider if / when this is debated around):

1) If 9-hole matches, one 9 will be easier for x against y while the other 9 not so much (the "horses for courses" syndrome), and
2) "I could've gone further if the TD didn't like x and paired me up against him..."

Unless there are some sort of "straight seedings" - where once the seedings are done, NO changing of seeding numbers (at all) take place...then the high of that "score" will always play the low, etc. Ps: and if a middle DNFs, you STILL don't change the seeding #s; someone just gets a lucky bye.

But I'm sure they'll still be some grump'in....

Karl

Alas... this is where the precious NEFA points come into play. You are pre-ranked by your final placing in the standings. If someone does drop or there is an odd number the lowest seed (highest ranked) players get the byes. Thus making the series and where you stand going into finals that much more important.

Matt Stroika wrote:... if you DNF, you forfeit any winnings which could then be thrown back into the pot for that division.

i like that- if you're a quitter, and you leave- your money goes back into the pot. even if it IS only 14 dollars or something.

another reason people leave is timing- if an event is painfully slow, started late, had a late lunch, and finished slow- people will take off. but i guess that goes without saying?

Matt,

Playing devil's advocate to your "plan", I can take the best / worse case scenario and see where the top seed never plays a match until the finals of the finals - via odd number of players for round 1 and then either "nothing changing" (continuing to have an odd number) or 2 of any of the following happening always at the same time: DQ / injury / "have to leave" / tantrum / etc.

I'm not sure if I like this (albeit rare) possibility - haven't thought enough about it. Chin scratching / pensive / pondering emocon....hmm.

Good thing people have time to play "...what if?" for numerous months before decisions have to be made for 2012 .

Karl

I never considered that scenario but I guess that is possible. What a great incentive to play tons of events and fight your way to the number 1 seed.

2x

Here's the deal about going one and done at a 2 day match play event:
It happens.
Play better.
The Vibram players stuck around, even though many had 15+ hour drives home.
Carpooling? I would be going with people who plan on staying for the entire event. OR drive yourself. Making carpooling a reason to reconsider the format of a finals event is silly.
Injuries/DQ/I gotta leave's, see ya. Highest seed gets a bye. Thanks for coming, even though you injured yourself on the first hole and were unable to continue playing. Win for the uninjured.

I remember going one and done at finals and caddying the next day. I saw Dodge and Drew Smith battle down the stretch. Sick, sick intensity.

I can even picture all this going down on a temp course
Remember the NEFA trailer that had all the pole-hole's you would set up at an event for disc golf? Remember??
Neither do I.
But I've been told and I listened...

Let's run it back and do like the old days for next year's finals. Everyone throws an apple and an xd.

Grandmasters throw those pluto platters....They're old
but good

So it turns out our mode of transport won't allow a keg in the mix. Compact car+camping gear+merch don't= keg.
Also I dont think the TD's like idea of free beer mixed with hours of driving home.
Understood.
I guess you will just have to go to Run for the Border 3 next summer for free beer. Sorry to disappoint.

I think match play is fun, but finals should be about playing, not having half the field watching. If you want to tweak the format to some random variation on disc golf, why not a stableford event or skins with the series money at stake? I'd rather see a two day event with 3 or 4 rounds. I'm also highly in favor of quality temp. courses or safari layouts to give new life to existing courses.

Is there anyone who is attending finals that could bring me lost and founds discs from Maple Hill?
david f orange h7
david f green e2
david frothingham blue f2

Will repay the favor w/ Heady Topper (http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/food/blogs/99bottles/)

You got it dave

I was at the last match play finals event in 2005 held at Dragan Field. At the time, I loved the concept. It was double elimination the first day and there was a consolation pool for day two set up as stroke play for those that couldn’t get past the match play rounds. Cool idea. It gave people who got eliminated a reason to stick around besides just to cheer on the ones that didn’t. More bang for your buck as they say. Unfortunately it didn’t work out quite as well as planned because mother nature decided that it was going to be 40 degrees out with heavy winds and torrential downpours the entire effing weekend. It was the most miserable two days of disc golf I have ever experienced. Anybody that’s been to the last two NEFA Finals can relate somewhat. Many people bailed after day one. Not so much because of the set up, but moreso because of the hurricane-like conditions.

I have worked out a match play 32 player field open(no divisions) match play format that would last 5 "Rounds" with all players competing against someone with the same record all 5 rounds and giving you a 5-0 champ.

9 hole matches
4 player cards
Winners/ losers on each card play second 9
Short break after first two matches fill out bracket and do the same thing for rounds 3/4
break
round 5 is 9 for field and 18 for two 4-0 players

logistics 1st round win early 5 up 4 to go walk with your group(throw practice holes/drives)
ties - keep playing, when someone wins start 2nd round for your card. hole doesn't matter just play 9

lots more just a start!

Keith Burtt wrote:You got it dave

Thanks Keith, will have a cold four pack waiting for you.

Here you go people:

One day, three round, match play event. This worked for YEARS here in the early 2000s. If you quit you forfeit your winnings.

8/830 start. Quick easy shuffle, and then right back out. I think someone once just drew the brackets on a white board, and it took only as long as writing the winner of the last/longest match on the freakin board to turn it around. Most of the winning players even wrote their own names on the next leg of the bracket. No scoring work necessary!

Nice little lunch break after round 2, and boom, yer back at it.

It goes faster than stroke play. Folks that go down 6 and 5 get a longer break. Folks that win 7 and 6 get an even longer break. Folks that wind up tied after 18 are pulling their hair out while everyone else watches them try not to blow it in a playoff. Easy, fast, lots of golf to be had and seen, and NO ONE LEAVES.

I remember some folks just called their last match a draw just to hang out and chill and watch some golf and finals action. Other matches were over before the end and we had a nice little gallery when I put Dussault out of his misery at Buff on 18

Match play is PERFECT for this tournament BECAUSE OF THE SEEDINGS!!! What do these points even mean if we don't use them in some competitive way? Other than seeing your name at the top of the list all year or determining which 18.5 people get in off the waitlist, THEY ARE WORTHLESS.

Plus (and this is a good one) its way more intense than stroke play because of the very nature of the game. You get to make (and watch your opponent make) some shots that would NEVER be attempted in stroke play, and these big shots, in addition to adding to fun factor in a big way, can COMPLETELY change the complexion and momentum of any match at any moment.

The perfect way to end the season. It's awesome. BRING IT BACK!!!!

As much as I love match play, I'd rather not see it at finals. Unless we play the whole year using a match play format. It's a completely different way of playing the game. Makes no sense to play stroke play all year, then completely change the format at the end.

Plus (and this is a good one) its way more intense than stroke play because of the very nature of the game. You get to make (and watch your opponent make) some shots that would NEVER be attempted in stroke play, and these big shots, in addition to adding to fun factor in a big way, can COMPLETELY change the complexion and momentum of any match at any moment.

This is also a good reason to NOT have match play as the format. It's a completely different game. I could take a 10 on a hole and still win the match. Some tournament players pride themselves on playing consistent and getting 3's, these players might do really well in stroke play and not stand a chance against a more aggressive player in match play. Stay with the fomat that is used during the regular season.

Great post Daniel..

Finals should do something to make it different. Yes, you could take a 10 and win but that means you were able to mentally recover and take that fool down after scoring a 10.

do you do match play for each division? or is everyone lumped together?

could match play just be done say in the pro divisions to start? on a separate day? might be a good compromise

Seems like people are split 50/50 on match play vs stroke play. The most common arguement that I see is "Makes no sense to play stroke play all year, then completely change the format at the end"... I see that point and it makes sense. It would make even more sense if the Finals was actually a true finals where all the best players in all the divisions were there. It's not in it's current format, unless we do something to make this event attractive, exciting, and something to strive for all year.

Titan, good Idea, I think Nefa should bring back Match play 2012 for the Pro Open division, use the pros as a test. If it fails, the AM divisions (the majority) wont feel slighted.

question on a slight thread drift

how would pairings be lined up in a match play event that was open to all to sign up?

random? would it be rating based?

could you do singles event and slim the field by having a cut then the 2nd day have a match play event? that would be a cool event idea for fun say next summer

are match play events allowed to be pdga sanctioned? under non x tier?

I smell a Flatrock/Tully stroke/match play crazy event brewing..gonna try to make this happen if I can become educated on how the logistics would work

Craig Cutler wrote:Seems like people are split 50/50 on match play vs stroke play. The most common arguement that I see is "Makes no sense to play stroke play all year, then completely change the format at the end"... I see that point and it makes sense. It would make even more sense if the Finals was actually a true finals where all the best players in all the divisions were there. It's not in it's current format, unless we do something to make this event attractive, exciting, and something to strive for all year.

Titan, good Idea, I think Nefa should bring back Match play 2012 for the Pro Open division, use the pros as a test. If it fails, the AM divisions (the majority) wont feel slighted.

That would probably be even cooler. I dont think I have heard from any pros that have actually had the opportunity to play the match play finals complain about it other than that people left and the solution to that has been thought out.

Craig Cutler wrote:Seems like people are split 50/50 on match play vs stroke play. The most common arguement that I see is "Makes no sense to play stroke play all year, then completely change the format at the end"... I see that point and it makes sense. It would make even more sense if the Finals was actually a true finals where all the best players in all the divisions were there. It's not in it's current format, unless we do something to make this event attractive, exciting, and something to strive for all year.

Titan, good Idea, I think Nefa should bring back Match play 2012 for the Pro Open division, use the pros as a test. If it fails, the AM divisions (the majority) wont feel slighted.

Either that.. OR what if we introduced some NEFA match play events throughout the year? Not sure what the logistics would be as far as points are concerned, but it could be pretty cool to have like 4 match play tournaments quarterly throughout the season.

Again, not knowing the logistics behind it but maybe they could take the place of the 2x events as those seem to be a hotly contested idea.

Someone break the course record this weekend

Shawn Mullen wrote:As much as I love match play, I'd rather not see it at finals. Unless we play the whole year using a match play format. It's a completely different way of playing the game. Makes no sense to play stroke play all year, then completely change the format at the end.

Plus (and this is a good one) its way more intense than stroke play because of the very nature of the game. You get to make (and watch your opponent make) some shots that would NEVER be attempted in stroke play, and these big shots, in addition to adding to fun factor in a big way, can COMPLETELY change the complexion and momentum of any match at any moment.

This is also a good reason to NOT have match play as the format. It's a completely different game. I could take a 10 on a hole and still win the match. Some tournament players pride themselves on playing consistent and getting 3's, these players might do really well in stroke play and not stand a chance against a more aggressive player in match play. Stay with the fomat that is used during the regular season.

ding ding ding! winner.


It should be set up similar to Indy or Nascar racing.. the vast majority of the events are oval track, including the last race or championship of the point series; but, sprinkle in a few road tracks during the season to give the guys who can turn right and left a chance to get some points, and spice up the regular season. I'd wager that the people who are against match play at finals would still play a match play in-season event, and the finals would be decided by the most consistent, solid golf. It's a lot harder (IMO) to keep it together mentally for 36+ holes of golf rather than starting over every hole.

That's because you have never played match play where it's you against the field. Especially if you are gunning for the win.