Question for Chuck

[Bear Dunn]

Todd, the people that want to play for $ can play with other people that are playing for $. Doesn't matter to me. I'll play with whoever happen to be on my card.

[Bear Dunn]

What I'm saying is I should be able to compete against the best without having to put in anything EXTRA. Why should I have to? For the opportunity to play with pros? Put me on the card with AMs then, but let my score go up against the pros. No? You can't have it both ways.

And you said people wouldn't know how they're competitors are doing and so might have played differently. Well, if I'm not playing for the $, then I'm not going to have an effect on their potential payout ANYWAY, so I don't see the big deal. And if I beat you, then I beat you. We're both playing against the same course. Lots of times in tourneys you don't know how your competitor is doing or what they've done on the last few holes. That's sort of a weak argument.

[Bear Dunn]

Steve, I know Tourney 54 is a different kind of tourney, and as I said, was just using it as an example.


Thing is, you say people can play AM, but that's just what's started all this over the past couple week. If I, or anyone were to crush people in AM, people would bitch and moan, but I, or perhaps others, don't WANT to play for money up in Pro. I don't have any interest playing in AM either. People bitching and moaning is annoying, PLUS I want to compete against the best.

And so that brings us what I'm talking about throughout these posts.

[Josh Connell]

The only way the argument about the "purse" works is if the tournament is filled to capacity. Otherwise, having a trophy-only player in the pro division affects nothing. The purse is really unaffected by his presence UNLESS there is a full price paying player who gets shut out as a result. And by that logic, any player not in the pro division at a filled tournament (assuming this isn't the USDGC and there are multiple divisions available) is taking up a spot that "makes the purse go down". Maybe the next step is to bump a rec player to make room for Mr. Pro Johnny Come Lately, so the purse can be bigger. No one is going to do that, right?

If there are 20 players paying $40 into the purse, that's $800. If a trophy only player is added, that's still 20 players playing for $800, and one other guy playing alongside them. There really is no harm involved at all. Gamblers still get to gamble.

[Steven Dakai]

I do see your point.However I look at it in a different light. The problem may not be the cost of the pro division,but the potential payouts in the Am division.
I think if we took all cash/prize incentives away from Am players then there would be no reason for people to called sandbaggers,real or imagined.
Am players get a trophy, 1st through 5th. Nothing wagered nothing gained. They are just there to compete.
Pros get cash payouts based on entry fee and size of field.

I know, this doesn't help your argument at all, just my thoughts.

[Steven Dakai]

ok Josh, you are right, about everything. Thank you for existing.

[Bear Dunn]

Yeah doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm saying. I agree with you completely about getting rid of merch for AMs.
My argument is about people who want to play against the best, have no interest competing in the AM division, one of the reasons being the public outcry that would ensue from them beating those people on a routine basis, yet don't want to pay the full $50 or whatever to enter into pro, because again, why should they if they're not looking to take anything out?

[Steven Dakai]

Its a tough question, above my pay grade.

[Todd Lapham]

So if you're playing with AMs, why not just play in the AM division on trophy only? You can compare scores after since both divisions play the same layout.

This would eliminate the "sandbagging" as you're not taking anything away from the AMs, you just don't want to pay $50 to play in Pro, which is understandable.

So if after the first round the scores looked like this:

You
Full Price 1
Trophy 1
Trophy 2

Full Price 2
Full Price 3
Trophy 3
Full Price 4

You'd be ok with the cards looking like:

Full Price 1
Full Price 2
Full Price 3
Full Price 4

You
Trophy 1
Trophy 2
Trophy 3

I guess I'm not seeing the point of playing Pro on Trophy only, other than the fact to say you played Pro and it negatively affects the guys paying full price.

Ultimately, I just think it's a bad idea to have the cheapest option be available in the Pro division. It's not like it's a skill protected division and anyone and their mother shouldn't be allowed to play in it for nothing, that's what leagues are for, imo.

[Mike Dussault]

I think if we took all cash/prize incentives away from Am players then there would be no reason for people to called sandbaggers,real or imagined.
Am players get a trophy, 1st through 5th. Nothing wagered nothing gained. They are just there to compete.
Pros get cash payouts based on entry fee and size of field.



This makes good sense to me.

[Karl Molitoris]

it's hard to nail down exactly what an event costs a TD, Crew, Club etc..until it's over..I believe TD reports are public records, just request them and you can see how all $ breaks down.

What happened to trusting your TD? We all know each other, very well in most cases. Who is ripping players off? It's the competitors that are cheating, not the TD's

Scott,

I understand that it's hard to nail down exactly what an event costs PRIOR to the tournament being run, but there ARE a LOT of expenses that...
1) have to be paid prior to (and thus you know)
- insurance
- toilets
- sanctioning fee(s)
- player's packs
- trophies
- etc.
2) you have a VERY good idea as to how much it will cost
- how much for 1st, etc. for each division (based on a percentage of total take-in for that division)
- etc.
...and thus THESE can be stated "up front". And I don't think anyone is going to hang a TD for being off a few bucks (due to unforeseen expenses, low / high turn-out, etc.). The whole idea is that if you're up-and-up why NOT disclose? What is there to hide?
Let the (potential) players vote with their feet. But it's impossible (for a player) to know "what the tournament's about" unless it's disclosed beforehand.

Karl
Ps: As for "cheating competitors", they can be DQ'd...IFFFF they are TRULY cheating...which I doubt they are!!!

[Todd Lapham]

I think if we took all cash/prize incentives away from Am players then there would be no reason for people to called sandbaggers,real or imagined.
Am players get a trophy, 1st through 5th. Nothing wagered nothing gained. They are just there to compete.
Pros get cash payouts based on entry fee and size of field.



This makes good sense to me.

x2.

I still have my Maple Hill 1 AM trophy and it's awesome. Way better than getting funny money and spending it on discs I don't throw anymore and not remembering what I even bought.

[Steven Dakai]

it's hard to nail down exactly what an event costs a TD, Crew, Club etc..until it's over..I believe TD reports are public records, just request them and you can see how all $ breaks down.

What happened to trusting your TD? We all know each other, very well in most cases. Who is ripping players off? It's the competitors that are cheating, not the TD's

Scott,

I understand that it's hard to nail down exactly what an event costs PRIOR to the tournament being run, but there ARE a LOT of expenses that...
1) have to be paid prior to (and thus you know)
- insurance
- toilets
- sanctioning fee(s)
- player's packs
- trophies
- etc.
2) you have a VERY good idea as to how much it will cost
- how much for 1st, etc. for each division (based on a percentage of total take-in for that division)
- etc.
...and thus THESE can be stated "up front". And I don't think anyone is going to hang a TD for being off a few bucks (due to unforeseen expenses, low / high turn-out, etc.). The whole idea is that if you're up-and-up why NOT disclose? What is there to hide?
Let the (potential) players vote with their feet. But it's impossible (for a player) to know "what the tournament's about" unless it's disclosed beforehand.

Karl
Ps: As for "cheating competitors", they can be DQ'd...IFFFF they are TRULY cheating...which I doubt they are!!!

The only things that are known prior to an event (unless it sells out several days in advance) are:
Insurance\Sanctioning fees
Toilets

Everything else is a mystery until the player meeting.

[Bear Dunn]

Ultimately, I just think it's a bad idea to have the cheapest option be available in the Pro division. It's not like it's a skill protected division and anyone and their mother shouldn't be allowed to play in it for nothing, that's what leagues are for, imo.

It's called "OPEN"

Annnnd, if you don't want to let just anyone play in it, then have a some kind of qualifications that one must meet in order to play in said OPEN division, rather than the only qualification being people who have $50 to spend.

As it is now, anyone and their mother CAN play in it, if they have the $.

The PGA doesn't let just anyone play in tourneys, but rather those who QUALIFY.

Now that's a whole other question, as to how would one qualify?

[Karl Molitoris]

The only things that are known prior to an event (unless it sells out several days in advance) are:
Insurance\Sanctioning fees
Toilets
Everything else is a mystery until the player meeting.

Oh contraire mon ami,

- You already have the player's packs so the cost is known (on a per player basis - what I hope you "charge" each for).
- You already have the trophies (whether you have to make one up afterwards is 1 place the TD should 'keep some $$ in reserve', etc.)
- And you WILL know - on a % basis - how much to give 1st, 2nd, etc. (exact amts need not be know, BUT %s should)
- Maybe others, etc.

And it is on THIS overall number that the TD's expenses will be - and thus what the cost per each player is (and should be charged for a "low in, no out" pay basis).

Karl
Ps: Yes, I know what I'm talking about - I've run tournaments down here in NJ.

[Bear Dunn]

And if someone kept winning AM1, and got every trophy, people would bitch and moan, like they did with Karl. "My buddy would have won that tourney, but you big meanie, you took that victory from him." That's what I'm talking about!

What's he to do then? Not play any more? Or shouldn't he be able to play against the better competition?

[Scott Howard]

It must suck charging people to use a toilet. On my next event flyer a gotta remember to disclose- The Sh!tter is on me!

[Karl Molitoris]

That's mighty kind of you Scott !

Karl

[Scott Howard]

Seriously though, well sorta, what TD is hiding anything out there? No one is hiding anything. The main reason you don't see any disclosure info on fliers or message boards is because it's more work on an "already" tedious job. Who want's more work to appease a handful of people?..If you want disclosure, just ask. If any TD is hiding anything, they would surely get found out and get severely lambasted on this forum.

[Charlie Holmgren]

I TD'd a PDGA event this past summer. The job is tough.
All money is kept within each division. Thats all anyone needs to know.

Why would anyone want to see how much was spent on scorecards or the receipt from Staples indicating how much was spent on the rules sheets or pencils?

who cares?

From my experience the people who question things like this are questionable themseleves. Otherwise they wouldn't have thought of it.

[Josh Connell]

Seriously though, well sorta, what TD is hiding anything out there? No one is hiding anything. The main reason you don't see any disclosure info on fliers or message boards is because it's more work on an "already" tedious job. Who want's more work to appease a handful of people?..If you want disclosure, just ask. If any TD is hiding anything, they would surely get found out and get severely lambasted on this forum.

I've mentioned this before to Karl on this topic, but it's worth saying again. There's a flip side to publicly disclosing all that information ahead of time, even when you know every detail down to the penny. We used to do that for our tournaments up here, down to including a table with the flyer with each division's entry fee broken down in detail ($1 to NEFA, $2 to PDGA, $X to this, $Y to that, $Z to payout, etc). The result more often than not was nit-picking prior to the event of "why does 'this' cost $X?" and "I shouldn't have to pay for 'that'.", etc. Not to mention those that confused giving the numbers for informational purposes as offering an a-la-carte style entry fee..."I'm only playing for NEFA points, so I don't have to pay the $2 PDGA fee".

The way I look at it is the nitpickers are going to do it no matter what, so I'd rather deal with it after the event so it doesn't spoil my anticipation for tournament day.

[Craig Cutler]

Around and around we go. Some TD's profit, some vendors profit, some kick back all profits into the "purses", some keep all profit for themselves. Some, (best model IMO) do both based on what's fair and right.

Not calling anyone selfish...but isnt it selfish to expect that a TD/tournament will try to cater exactly to everyones own personal needs for the day?

[Sean Healy]

Let's just all go to the course and play in one division. Whoever wins gets a high five. SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT TIME!

[Bear Dunn]

Let's just all go to the course and play in one division. Whoever wins gets a high five. SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT TIME!

Who the hell said that? If you want to play for money no one's trying to stop you.

[Todd Lapham]

As it is now, anyone and their mother CAN play in it, if they have the $.

The PGA doesn't let just anyone play in tourneys, but rather those who QUALIFY.

Now that's a whole other question, as to how would one qualify?

What do you mean the PDGA doesn't let anyone play in tourneys? As far as I know, there is no qualifications besides paying for your division.

I want to fly first class on a plane, but don't want to pay the additional money from the coach fee. Now can I say I don't want a pillow/drinks and not only not have to pay the coach fee, but pay EVEN LESS?!

Hell why not have tournaments be free! If it wasn't for the players there would be no tournament, so why am I being charged for them to run a tournament?

I don't see how you paying the AM fee (which you would if no Trophy Only option) and being able to play in the OPEN isn't ok. Everything costs money, not just the bare break even cost. That's what leagues and casual rounds are for.

If people really cared about competing with the best players and not the whole "what do I get" mentality then you would agree.

**This is nothing personal, just general ME, ME, ME mentalities of the AMs in the disc golf world is tiresome**

[Bear Dunn]

PGA, man. Professional Golf Association. Not PDGA. I was using it as a model.

[Tim Carter]

"This is nothing personal, instead I will make sweeping generalizations about the majority of disc golfers and NEFA members.". What is in that Burgess water that makes some of you so highly superior to the rest of us?

[Bear Dunn]

I've never in my posts said anything that would resemble a "me, me, me...what's in it for me" mentality.

I've always said that tourneys should get rid of merch for AMs.. If that was the case, then the cost would NECESSARILY come down for AMs, no? And if that price was lower, then sure, I would have NO PROBLEM paying that cost and playing trophy only.

Actually I do care about playing against the best. What, in any of my posts, has told you that I care only about "what I get"?

[Bear Dunn]

and dude, not a good analogy with the plane. We're all in the same plane. We're all playing the same holes on the same course.

[Scott Howard]

We're all in the same plane. We're all playing the same holes on the same course.

Not necessarily...Mighty Gaw- All Pro divisions and Am1 play longs second round- All other divisions play shorts again. We do this to pay for the bathrooms, parking fees, water bills, daily property tax, permit fees and most of all- because of daylight.
Many players switch divisions due to that.