Rule Book

[Chuck Kennedy]

PGA Speed of play Rule: "The PGA Tour has adopted its own guidelines for stroke-play competitions. First, a player must be declared out of position and informed he is on the clock by a rules official. Out comes the stopwatch. A player is permitted 40 seconds to play a stroke, with an extra 20 seconds allotted for various situations like being the first to putt. The first violation warrants a warning. A second offense results in a one-stroke penalty."

[Karl Molitoris]

For those of you who haven't a background based in ball golf, that which I'm about to say may not make much sense but it is the truth.

Ball golf was intended to be played - as has been shown on numerous old signs / pictures of signs / treatises on golf / etc. - in "3 and 3/4 hours to 4 hours for 18 holes". This was on a course where 4-somes would walk their round on courses about 5500 - 6000 yard long. Ever been to Scotland (as a Yank) and even thought about playing slower on any of the local courses (not the BIG courses, who DO cater somewhat to tourists)? You get a gnarly old ranger crabbing up your butt and WILL pull you aside if you DO go slower! So it CAN be done. It's just that now-a-days people seem to be into the socializing, cell phone answering, GPS figure-outing, talking about whatevering, etc. instead of PLAYING the game...so rounds take 5+ hours.

No difference in disc golf (must be that "golf" word that gets people all goofy ). If people TRULY played dg and didn't do anything else, the speed of play would be a LOT faster. But people will be people.

Karl
Ps: And slow people will ALWAYS get on the nerves of fast people more than vise versa .

[Josh Connell]

While I agree with everything you say there Josh, I disagree with how long 30 seconds 'feels' for the group... it feels like forever only when it's not you. But if you're in trouble or just need time to assess the situation, I don't think you should have a 'rule' that forces pace of play. The only result is bad golf and higher scores. Could you imagine that rule in the PGA?

Some players are fast. Some take their time. Both theories work for different reasons for different people. It's not really fair to penalize someone because they don't play like you (within reason).

I think a more reasonable rule would be to allow 'extensions' like in proffesional billiards. They have a time limit and usually just bang through the easy shots, just like DG. But there are instances where you NEED to take more time, address the shot and make a good play. They simply call 'extension please' and can take the time to perform the best shot.

They do have time rules in the PGA. While it's not a time limit per shot, they do have pace rules to abide by, largely based on keeping up with the playing group in front. If a group falls too far behind, they get a warning and get put "on the clock". If they fail to close up the gap sufficiently in a timely manner, they're penalized two strokes. The "on the clock" warning happens a lot...the penalty is rarely assessed because most players speed up when they're on the clock.

Disc golf doesn't yet have the luxury of imposing rules for which enforcement is dependent on a full course of players...can't penalize a player or a group for failing to keep pace with the group in front if the group in front started out 4 holes ahead and entirely out of site. So instead, it's a time-based rule per shot.

And I think without having an "extension" rule in the book, people more or less grant that kind of leeway on the tougher lies and shots anyway. That's what I meant by going over 30 seconds once in a while is no big deal. Maybe the group gets a bit impatient, but no one says anything. It's only when it becomes habitual and is tangibly slowing the group down that anything is ever said about the 30 second clock. I think it tends to mirror the PGA rule fairly closely.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Most of the time, you can't call a player on 30 seconds since you didn't think to start timing the player who seems to be taking too long to throw. So from a practical standpoint, you probably have a few times a round when you can take longer than 30 seconds until someone in the group might even try to time you.

[Matt Aubin]

Well, it may sound like I'm being a nitpicker here, but please just take this as 'it's cold out and I'm bored...'

Most of the time, you can't call a player on 30 seconds since you didn't think to start timing the player who seems to be taking too long to throw. So from a practical standpoint, you probably have a few times a round when you can take longer than 30 seconds until someone in the group might even try to time you.

From the book:

The 30-second clock (excessive time) now starts when you reach your disc, rather than after you mark it, since a disc may not be marked. You can no longer stand over your disc holding your mini for an indefinite amount of time.

IFFFF someone wanted to follow the rules to the letter, and just generally be a jerk, they could start timing someone who is obviously in trouble and then give them a warning or even a penalty (2nd time) for an advantage in the game. Not for speed of play, not for sportmanship and following the rules, but literally screwing someone because it is assumed that a player gets "a few times a round when you can take longer than 30 seconds"...

All because the rule was changed to the wording "reach your disc." That is VERY broad and all-encompassing. I believe it should be worded 'when a player takes a legal stance behind their marked lie' and then 30 second starts. Or, allow a certain number of time extensions. I don't think either of those options would be abused my the vast majority of players, and even if they were it would not be an unfair advantage (you still need to execute a shot).

Again, I go back to the video I posted, Josh, Chuck, Karl whomever check it out. We all say that the current rules need to be properly self-enforced since there are no officials, and we preach the need for sportsmanship and following the rules even if it means being a 'jerk' or upsetting someone on a foot foul, etc... but do you really think Wiggins should have called 30 seconds on Barry at that exact moment? Would that have made the sport better in any way?

I think it's a great conversation and I thank everyone involved for even taking on the task of rule writing and such. It's a thankless job that is very easy to critique like crazy, and then walk away. I just don't think an existing rule should be altered to help reduce 'inconvenience' while possibly opening the door for abuse and competitive advantage... even if unlikely.

[Karl Molitoris]

It's interesting, and probably just one of those facts of human nature, that when it comes to "adequate / sufficent pace of play (POP)", the definition that most people will come up with is one of "...anything slower than MY pace is too slow...".

Nothing official here, but I would guess that POP should be about 2/3rds that of bg. I base this on that even though bg traverses ~3X the distance that dg does, the inherent usage of the majority of the time NOT moving to your next shot (read: the disc selection, cleaning, marking, determining who is away, etc.) is pretty much equal for both sports and thus isn't subject to the 3X factor. This having been said, I'd say that a tournament 4-some should take 2 1/2 to 3 1/3 hours for dg (this being based on ~0.67 x 4 or 5 hours (for bg tournament rounds)).

WHY this can't (or won't) happen is primarily based in that dg is a "fun" sport (and thus people don't want to be subjected to stickler encumbrances) and bg tournaments are attended by those people who KNOW that such will be evoked and are totally accepting of such. It's a mindset. And one that probably won't change anytime too soon because of the number of players that play bg casually >>>>>>>>>> bg tournaments whereas dg causally >>> dg tournaments. If you're "the select few" you play / accept consequences of such accordingly; if not, "winging it" (moreso) is fine.

Karl

[Karl Molitoris]

Would that have made the sport better in any way?

Matt,

I totally hear you (and aren't stating this just to be a noodge) and understand your meaning, but there IS a bit of this situation that has me thinking that if he DID call him on it it would've made people understand that the rules ARE in place for a purpose (and not just for calling - as most people seem to believe laws / rules are - when THEY wish to (or benefits them)). Don't hate the situation - hate the rule! And if one does, do something about it (propose a different / better rule). Rubicons are NOT easily drawn...but sometimes they have to be.

Good point about such would be that it would speed up the game...which I believe HAS (over the last 8 or so years I've experienced tournament play) slowed down a whole lot.

Caused a 'bad vibe' situation for sure, but sometimes good things come out of seemingly bad things....

Karl

[Chuck Kennedy]

You do get one official freebie for going past 30 seconds since the first call is a warning. In addition, you'll likely not get called for 30 seconds until you have taken too long more than a few times and someone starts timing you. The rule is really there to give other players a tool to stop ongoing abuse more than rigidly control play. Otherwise, there would be a penalty right away instead of just a warning.

[Josh Connell]

Again, I go back to the video I posted, Josh, Chuck, Karl whomever check it out. We all say that the current rules need to be properly self-enforced since there are no officials, and we preach the need for sportsmanship and following the rules even if it means being a 'jerk' or upsetting someone on a foot foul, etc... but do you really think Wiggins should have called 30 seconds on Barry at that exact moment? Would that have made the sport better in any way?

There's nothing in the rule that says that an excessive time violation has to be called the moment it happens. So no, I don't think Wiggins should have called "30 seconds" while Schultz was still in the process of throwing. It is something that can be held until the throw is completed. There's no re-throw involved or anything, the first called violation is just a warning. So Wiggins (or Todd) could have issued the warning after the throw as done or even after the hole was complete. No advantage gained for anyone calling it, and Schultz doesn't get penalized. He's simply put on notice that he needs to be aware of the clock.

And I disagree with the notion that someone could "work" another player by warning them for a time violation. It's a fairly exact violation that would require two players conspiring to be misused at the expense of another player. I don't believe players are going to be called on taking excessive time unless they actually are taking excessive time. And if they are, and it's going to throw their game off, then their game needs adjusting.

I think people don't think about the clock and take their time not because there's an assumption that the first couple times will get a pass, but because it is a call that is so rarely made that it never enters most players minds to worry about it. It's the same argument I make about foot faults...if they were called more often, players would become more aware of their footwork and practice it more diligently so as to be in compliance. If a player tends to be deliberate with his shotmaking and pushes the 30-second time limit frequently, the only way he'll change is if he's forced to address the issue. Players should be adjusting to comply with the rules, not the other way around.

[Karl Molitoris]

I'm not saying that the 'bg way' could or should be emulated, but there is something more inherently "fairer" about time one's position in reference to the field opposed to any one snippet of action (one throw). A little story...

A certain player on the PGA appeared to be a real turtle as every time he'd get over a putt he'd seemingly freeze over it forever...and then eventually 'pull the trigger'. People wondered if he was 'obtaining an unfair advantage' by "concentrating" more than other players. People (usually hackers) started mimicking him...to the chagrin of their playing partners. Then the TV broadcasters starting timing the bloke (to see if he was getting preferential treatment from the PGA timers). Turns out he wasn't slow at all! When asked during an interview why he seemed slow but wasn't, he responded that he was fully aware of the rules, wished to 100% comply with them (and not incur penalties, be discourteous to his playing partners, etc.), so came up with a 'plan' to walk very quickly between shots, assess virtually every aspect of the upcoming shot (except the lie - which you can only once directly over the ball) prior to getting to the next shot, and THEN could "take a little extra time" to actually execute the shot. Seemed to work. That PGA player was Jack Nicklaus.

Proper utilization of all weapons at hand (shots, conditions, rules, and TIME - which is one of them) is part of the game, so it would be neat if players could met out time allotment in ways that would both be rules compliant AND be the most beneficial to themselves. By the way, chess used to have NO time limits (100+ years ago or so)...and I bet the game totally sucked even for the players! Just think of it. We don't want to go there.

Karl

[Chuck Kennedy]

Actually chess timing is a good analogy to how I personally see timimg in DG even though we don't use chess clocks. In chess, you get so much time to make so many moves. You can take a lot of time on important moves which just means you have to take less time on other moves. If a player in general is playing at a decent speed (and that's most players) that's faster than 30 seconds per throw, then I mentally give them the extra time needed for the few tougher throws they have to make.

As a marshal, I won't make a 30 second call, leaving it to the players in the group if they wish to make it and I'll second their call. However, if the group is falling behind, I'll say something in general to get them all moving a bit faster.

[Karl Molitoris]

Personally, I would love, love, LOVE to have such a timing system (a certain amount of time for each player and one could 'bank' their time (if needed) and use it appropriately) implemented into dg. Yes, I mentioned it purposely so that others - maybe smarter than I at this time (bad thinking day) - could use this bit of information / idea and devise such for dg. People would have 1 more facet to 'worry about / manage' (adding to the challenge), it would be 'fairer', and we'd all get a round done in some time shorter than 37 years (OK, maybe a slight exaggeration).

Karl

[Chuck Kennedy]

The problem with developing some sort of chess clock timing system for DG is that each player in a group makes a different number of total throws and some of those might be penalties. Whereas in chess, both players make the same number of moves. It would almost have to be something like X amount of time for every 18 shots so the number of shots was less than a typical round score.

[Patrick Harris]

Someone on FB brought up a funny question....

"What if the player walked pass his disc while looking for his disc, does his 30 sec. starts??"

[Karl Molitoris]

Or get better (and take less shots / use less time) !!!

Funny thing is that I've played with some (tactfully speaking) "less than stellar" players (read: they used a LOT of shots...and then some!) and yet, sometimes, these types of groups move right along and do NOT play any slower than 3 x 1000+ rated players and me.

Karl
Ps: Yeh, I must be the slug

[Stephen Ditter]

Watching Barry in the video and not the clock I thought he was with in the time limit. It really didn't seem like he was there for an extended length of time. When you watch the clock he was there longer than 30 secs. (it appears to be closer to 40 than 50, but I'll watch it again to be sure).

It makes me think back to how many times I was over the limit during my years of playing. I have thought about a shot much longer than Barry in the video and it never even crossed my mind that I was standing there for longer than 30 secs. I have never been called for a time violation. Maybe my group kept their bitching to themselves.

I really don't play in tournaments anymore but I guess I better be a little more mindful during league play.

-ditterman

[Ven Vardin]

Missed so far in this discussion is waiting for wind to die down, or waiting for a huge gust beneficial to your throw. Because of that the chess clock idea doesn't work. Thirty seconds per throw is plenty. Saving unused time for later in the round is not good for the wind factor.

Or what if someone in a 36 hole tournament had saved 20 minutes (out of 108 strokes x 5 min a stroke = 54 minutes), and it was getting dark at the end, so on his last stroke takes the full 20 minutes and that results in everyone after him playing in the dark? Lots of possibility for cheating here.

[Ryan Kasprzycki]

All because the rule was changed to the wording "reach your disc." That is VERY broad and all-encompassing. I believe it should be worded 'when a player takes a legal stance behind their marked lie' and then 30 second starts. Or, allow a certain number of time extensions. I don't think either of those options would be abused my the vast majority of players, and even if they were it would not be an unfair advantage (you still need to execute a shot).

.

I agree with this quote, the wording could be changed from reach your disc to takes a legal stance, I dont think it would be abused on purpose like the waiting forever to actually put down your marker. a couple of examples would be

2 players throw discs and lies are close to each other. player A is away so he will throw first. player B can go to his disc because its ten feet to the right of player A just a little closer. Player B has the 30 secs player A uses to figure out a shot then another 30 secs when its his turn to throw assuming you start the timer when its player B's turn. Maybe its not a huge advantage but player B can at least get an idea of what may or may not be in his way

other times you think you know what disc you need and grab it on the way to your lie. when you get to your lie, (clock supposed to start)and check out the line, you realize you need a different disc. you know in order to find that disc and get ready to throw it will be over 30 secs, and can force you to throw a shot you dont want to, or mentally be scrambling to find the right disc and barely have enough time to throw it. Making a player feel rushed in those circumstances

If I take a legal stance with the wrong disc in hand and have 30 secs from that point I think it would be enough time to grab another and throw it, but if clock is starting from when I reach it its cutting it a bit close, sometimes footing can be tricky and to re-establish that can take some crucial seconds also. obviously players wont always need extra time and if abusing it the group should say something but Im sure all of us at some point thought we had the right disc and after looking at the line with disc in hand needed to switch to a different disc because some tree is in the way

[Karl Molitoris]

The old saying in ball golf is "Your position should be directly in back of the group ahead of you, not directly in front of the group behind you". If all persons TRULY strove for this, we'd have NO problem. But (again) people will be people.


Just one more log to throw onto the fire...
If a tournament had several check points (1) and any one group's position compared to the group ahead of them was assessed at a check point (with a warning given if applicable) and again checked later (with strokes added if applicable), it may be a way to both "get the time point across" AND not necessitate a tournament official to be with every group. Sort of like 'random checking' but it wouldn't be random - it would be infrequent and its implementation point pre-known by all.

(1) Say hole 3's tee box would have a timer who registers how much time from one group to the next (2). If it's longer than X (3) then that second group IS "a bit behind where they should be" and will be warned. Then again maybe hole 8's tee box, the same thing happens.

(2) Whether it's from the last hole out of the first group to the last throw off the tee pad of the second group or what (there are LOTS of possibilities here...some better than others...will have to be ironed out) can be finalized.

(3) Some reasonable time period (figured out by the TD and crew, or by PDGA, etc.) that would be 'for all' for that tournament. No exceptions.


Would be perceived as rather harsh but would be an excellent experiment!
I understand that this is some heady stuff - but it's just the rambling thoughts of one player.

Karl

[Josh Connell]

Just one more log to throw onto the fire...
If a tournament had several check points (1) and any one group's position compared to the group ahead of them was assessed at a check point (with a warning given if applicable) and again checked later (with strokes added if applicable), it may be a way to both "get the time point across" AND not necessitate a tournament official to be with every group. Sort of like 'random checking' but it wouldn't be random - it would be infrequent and its implementation point pre-known by all.

(1) Say hole 3's tee box would have a timer who registers how much time from one group to the next (2). If it's longer than X (3) then that second group IS "a bit behind where they should be" and will be warned. Then again maybe hole 8's tee box, the same thing happens.

(2) Whether it's from the last hole out of the first group to the last throw off the tee pad of the second group or what (there are LOTS of possibilities here...some better than others...will have to be ironed out) can be finalized.

(3) Some reasonable time period (figured out by the TD and crew, or by PDGA, etc.) that would be 'for all' for that tournament. No exceptions.

Would be perceived as rather harsh but would be an excellent experiment!
I understand that this is some heady stuff - but it's just the rambling thoughts of one player.

Karl

The checkpoint idea probably has merit...in a world where all tournaments have the staff to put someone at those checkpoints to monitor things. We're still operating in a world where the vast majority of events see participants in the tournament doubling as TD and staff. Can't have the TD monitoring a check point at hole 1 or 6 or wherever if he's on the course as a player.

The PGA/USGA pace rules are a good goal to aspire to, but we as a sport are decades away from being at their level in terms of participation both player and staff-wise. Checkpoints and clock officials and the like might work now at an event the size and breadth of USDGC or Vibram, but not at a run of the mill A-tier, let alone B or C tier or even Worlds.

[Chris Bolton]

have never been called for a time violation. Maybe my group kept their bitching to themselves.

I really don't play in tournaments anymore but I guess I better be a little more mindful during league play.

-ditterman

Come to Panthorn league. A stop watch has been seen numerous times

[Karl Molitoris]

Just one more log to throw onto the fire...
If a tournament had several check points (1) and any one group's position compared to the group ahead of them was assessed at a check point (with a warning given if applicable) and again checked later (with strokes added if applicable), it may be a way to both "get the time point across" AND not necessitate a tournament official to be with every group. Sort of like 'random checking' but it wouldn't be random - it would be infrequent and its implementation point pre-known by all.

(1) Say hole 3's tee box would have a timer who registers how much time from one group to the next (2). If it's longer than X (3) then that second group IS "a bit behind where they should be" and will be warned. Then again maybe hole 8's tee box, the same thing happens.

(2) Whether it's from the last hole out of the first group to the last throw off the tee pad of the second group or what (there are LOTS of possibilities here...some better than others...will have to be ironed out) can be finalized.

(3) Some reasonable time period (figured out by the TD and crew, or by PDGA, etc.) that would be 'for all' for that tournament. No exceptions.

Would be perceived as rather harsh but would be an excellent experiment!
I understand that this is some heady stuff - but it's just the rambling thoughts of one player.

Karl

The checkpoint idea probably has merit...in a world where all tournaments have the staff to put someone at those checkpoints to monitor things. We're still operating in a world where the vast majority of events see participants in the tournament doubling as TD and staff. Can't have the TD monitoring a check point at hole 1 or 6 or wherever if he's on the course as a player.

The PGA/USGA pace rules are a good goal to aspire to, but we as a sport are decades away from being at their level in terms of participation both player and staff-wise. Checkpoints and clock officials and the like might work now at an event the size and breadth of USDGC or Vibram, but not at a run of the mill A-tier, let alone B or C tier or even Worlds.

I agree that such is impractical for the vast majority of tournaments at this time (year 2013) but we have to start some time / at some venue!
Yes, maybe a BIG tournament getting dispensation for the implementation of such would be a start (and thus my use of the word "experiment" - I'm not even totally sold on the idea...) and other ideas like this. Only once you see it in the flesh will you really know if it has potential or not.

Karl

[Dave Jackson]

At one of our team challenges, a player was pulling out a phone and using it as a stop watch.
It was implemented in poor taste.
At lunch I found out who was using the stopwatch idea and told my cap'n I wanted to play him in doubles for the second round.
About two holes into dubs, I saw the clock come out. After mentioning to the player I thought it was not needed (and was only putting fuel on the fire) he did for the most part put it away.

You see, pulling a stopwatch to try and gain an advantage over your opponent may work temporarily, but it makes you look like a tool and speaks volumes about your character.

We beat them in dubs and I lost some respect for the players we were playing.

Karl said it best when he said to keep up with the group in front of you.

Stopwatches are for track meets.

[Josh Connell]

Wow, that is a douche move. Unless there's a reason to make a show of timing players, like someone is actually taking too long on a consistent basis, there's really no call for it. And even then, if a player seems to be taking too long, count it in your head the first couple times just to be sure. When you're just standing and waiting, 30 seconds is forever and 20 seconds can feel like way too long. If you pull out the timer and put someone on the clock for taking 18 seconds on a shot, you're gonna look like an ass.

I think if someone did something like that in my playing group, I'd be asking him if he was going to use a ruler to make sure I was within 30 cm of my mini on every shot, too. That guy isn't going to make many friends doing stuff like that. I'm big on playing by the rules and calling rules violations when they happen, but there is a difference between being conscientious about it and being overbearing about it. Making a show of timing players is being overbearing, to say the least.

[Chuck Kennedy]

I would agree it seems unnecessary for the 30 second call unless there's a pattern developing that everyone notices. On the other hand, I don't see a problem pulling out the phone stopwatch and letting everyone know you're timing the 3 minutes on a lost disc, as long as you're also looking.

[Josh Connell]

I would agree it seems unnecessary for the 30 second call unless there's a pattern developing that everyone notices. On the other hand, I don't see a problem pulling out the phone stopwatch and letting everyone know you're timing the 3 minutes on a lost disc, as long as you're also looking.

Considering that the rule book now explicitly instructs that a player in the group should declare that the 3 minute clock has started, pulling out the phone to use as a stopwatch in that situation shouldn't be questioned in the least.

[Dave Jackson]

Danka Josh and Chuck

[Josh Connell]

Thought this was germane to the discussions on this thread about time. The USGA is initiating a study to find a way to speed up play on the golf course. Apparently, both on tour and in casual amateur rounds, length of time on the course is becoming an issue to the point that they are going to find ways to speed things up.

The problem was brought to the forefront a couple weeks ago at Torrey Pines. They dealt with weather delays that forced them to try to play the final 36 holes on Sunday. Most of the field could not finish the final round in daylight and they had to finish on Monday. And even on Monday, the lead group with Tiger Woods took nearly four hours to play their final 11 holes.

I just found this interesting in light of the comparisons made between disc and ball golf in terms of pace of play. Of course, disc golf plays much faster in general, but the idea that we're too stringent with our pace rules fails a bit in light of the fact that ball golf is trying to speed things up themselves.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Perhaps they'll allow players to swing from a moving cart as in polo for some real excitement.

Rounds taking too long is cited as one of the key reasons golf has been losing players who don't want to regularly take 5 hours away from their families.

[Matt Aubin]

The problem was brought to the forefront a couple weeks ago at Torrey Pines. They dealt with weather delays that forced them to try to play the final 36 holes on Sunday. Most of the field could not finish the final round in daylight and they had to finish on Monday. And even on Monday, the lead group with Tiger Woods took nearly four hours to play their final 11 holes.

I watched monday's final 11 holes. It was absolutely PAINFUL. All I could think about was, while watching these guys take over 5 MINUTES to take a shot, was you guys saying 'but matt, the PGA does have time rules' when I say they don't. No, they don't.

You know why? 'Play it where it lies.' It was windy and they were spraying their drives all over the course. With no OB rules it was a giant mess .. where's my ball? Oh it's unplayable... let's get an official...let's do the drop dance... OK now, let's move everyone out of the way...

It will never change though. But man was that unwatchable.