NEFA DISCussion

Craig Cutler wrote:putting it out for "bid" is a great idea.

I like the bid/rfp idea too.

Craig Cutler wrote:A lot of us have our local clubs (Skylands/DisCap,etc), that build courses and promote growth. We join NEFA for the competition (tournament) aspect. We join and support our local clubs for course development, work days, etc.

This ^^^^

I think it should be bid on. Having it at the same venue is not fair to those that have to drive up in the early am or get a hotel .I come from north jersey what about someone coming from southern jersey would be a 4 to 5 hour trip. This may prove to deter people from playing The Finals. Also that would mean the ams will always have to play the course during Octoberfest, the busiest day of the year at Hylands.Putting it out for bid will put the burden on a "club" not on just a few people. I would vote to have it bid on yearly like Worlds .

A lot of us have our local clubs (Skylands/DisCap,etc), that build courses and promote growth. We join NEFA for the competition (tournament) aspect. We join and support our local clubs for course development, work days, etc.

I agree in part and disagree in part with that statement..fair enough

I truly wanna find out who would net nefa more members the Xevent/competition group or Xclinic/school/course design work crew..I know there are cross overs in those X's as well...

my point I guess is they are both cool aspects...just I see the balance tipping towards mostly event orientated crowd...and have seen things go stale over the last few years

well anyways yeah bid nefa finals out like a HO...and yes let clubs step up if they want their course to be the awesome1..regardless the location geographically...if NY/NJ crushes the bid..well fill your tanks and get yo arse there..same goes for bangor..ya get the point

but first nefa needs to identify and list a few key must haves...much like contractor bids you must already have X tools etc etc...bathrooms,room for X, etc etc..then the rest that course wants to add...icing on da fat kids cake

Smuggs gots X

lol

vt + finals = awesomenessjuice

Speaking as an aging MA resident and a longtime NEFA member, there needs to be more thought put in to the amount of spots that are going to be available for our aging players like myself. At 47 I'm finding it a heck of lot more difficult to keep up with the 20 and 30 somethings. Yes I am certainly eligible to try to qualify in the masters division, but with only 1 invite initially awarded (I realize more invites got awarded due to other people not being able to attend - not the point) to a MA resident would that realistically be worth investing my time and expense in an attempt to qualify? There were 17 AM Masters in MA that tried and only 1 got the intial invite. Not a good ratio.

Sidenote: The VT Finals in 2010 were the best I have ever attended. They catered to the players... literally.

I have a couple of questions/comments.

There's not much discussion going on here. Are we going to wait until after Kisco & the Vineyard again to figure it all out?

What happened with the alternate scoring formats that Danny was doing? Did any of them look better than the current format?

Any more ideas on how to get Maine and VT/NH to a lesser degree more active in the NEFA points

Arty, if you look more closely at the AM masters list. Only 2 or 3 actually played in 4 or more events (out of the 17 you noted that were in the Mass regional section). You can't really say that people that only played in 2 tournaments or less really had ambitions of even trying to qualify for finals can you?

If it's not going to be a limited number of special event qualifying tournaments, I think that all NEFA events should be qualifiers, not just your home state ones. However, you should still compete regionally only amongst the people from your home state for the state invitations. That would eliminate the problems with the people on the borders, and it would make it much less confusing, as there would be no more reason to track someone from NH in MA any more.

Also, I think it's ridiculous that somone that played in just one NEFA tournament the entire year would get invited to the NEDGC, an event that others worked their asses off all year to try and get into. (unless maybe if that one event was a major win (i.e. a multi day event)...like the VibrAM.) That might be worth an automatic bid. So I think there should be a minimum number set for getting a finals invite....even if it means the event doesn't fill, or a state sends less than the number of invites it gets allocated. People should have to put forth at least SOME effort to get in. I'd rather see the guy that played in 10+ tournies and finished back of the pack get in over a guy that only bothered to play one or two events all year.

Actually what would you think of a points bonus for players that play in X number of, say 10 or more NEFA events in a year? Wouldn't that be worth 10 or 20 points?

That's it for now...hopefully this sparks some discussion.

troy your first question is answers in nefa minutes thread...as I read Danny ran numbers..and only one division woulda seen a change in winner..AM2

so I believe they stated they would keep it same cuz it didnt matter that much

the one event is LOL also

Troy Dietrich wrote:I have a couple of questions/comments.
If it's not going to be a limited number of special event qualifying tournaments, I think that all NEFA events should be qualifiers, not just your home state ones. However, you should still compete regionally only amongst the people from your home state for the state invitations. That would eliminate the problems with the people on the borders, and it would make it much less confusing, as there would be no more reason to track someone from NH in MA any more.

that was a common complaint & suggestion, I would expect that to be changed. I haven't heard anyone come up with an argument against that suggestion.

Troy Dietrich wrote:Also, I think it's ridiculous that somone that played in just one NEFA tournament the entire year would get invited to the NEDGC, an event that others worked their asses off all year to try and get into. (unless maybe if that one event was a major win (i.e. a multi day event)...like the VibrAM.) That might be worth an automatic bid. So I think there should be a minimum number set for getting a finals invite....even if it means the event doesn't fill, or a state sends less than the number of invites it gets allocated. People should have to put forth at least SOME effort to get in. I'd rather see the guy that played in 10+ tournies and finished back of the pack get in over a guy that only bothered to play one or two events all year.

I also agree with this. Should be a strict tournament minimum, especially if your earlier suggestion gets adopted you'll have more opportunities to qualify.

No decision was made at the November meeting because we felt that the new BoD should have a say in how things run for next year. I'll talk with Bill about getting a meeting on the books in a couple weeks to review everything and get it all ironed out before the start of the season.

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in this about the NEDGC.

1) Would like to see 4-8 reserve spots for "special" invites (honored players, TDs, most supportive person, etc.)

2) Would like to see (only) 4 reserve spots for Deaf disc golfers - one AM1, one AM2, one AM Masters, and one AM Women. Yeah, there's no Deaf pro disc golfers in New England area....yet. The Deaf disc golfers will have to compete for the NEDGC spots at the annual NEDDG Championship in September.

Just a thought!!

Pat,

good idea..just think it is a lil ahead of its time

one day I could see GMDGC,MPT,DeafDG orgs added with the rest of states haing some series as qualification creating the NEDC...

I predict 4-7 years

I agree with Troy. A minimum number of events should be required. If you wanna go to the finals get your ass to at least 3 NEFA events minimum regardless of region.

Just a thought to throw out there, what about a PRO AND an AM finals on the same weekend (sat. and Sunday) or even on different weekends? That way the states with more players (NY/ME/MA) can get more players in, players/regions won't feel like they are getting shut out, and it will help develop more AM tourney players, which ideally will help increase NEFA membership.

Take the top say 50-72 point getters from the pro and the AM divisions, and give them their "own" day. Courses can bid for a tournament, and the top two bids get one of the two tournaments.

Titan_Bariloni wrote:Pat,

good idea..just think it is a lil ahead of its time

one day I could see GMDGC,MPT,DeafDG orgs added with the rest of states haing some series as qualification creating the NEDC...

I predict 4-7 years

Ahead of its time?

Nah, its good time to write down and make plans! Its not that hard to develop limited reserve spots for qualified players.

I predict 2-3 years.

Remember, Disc Golf is the fastest growing sport in the world.

4-7 years are way too slow...

George Economos and I spoke about this idea of NEFA being a parent organization so to speak for all the regional clubs. Offering a finals event that showcased the top talent from all those clubs at one event. That was two years ago back at Charlton Woods (man I miss that place)! The thing that is holding this evolution back is the number of courses and the initiative of local clubs forming/starting their own series of events. It will likely get there in time, but still need some major changes to take place.

what would it look like

GMDGC..seems to be on big thang..maybe include the deaf club in this as well or separate IDK
MPT..maybe they have broken to subsection already
CT has started to form a regional series..includes RI to?
RI see above
NH..just starting to get courses in..in key areas
NY seems 2 big clubs relevant to nefa...maybe 3 with wedge discap/skylands
MA..we could have eastern shore,central wooosta,rt 2, and western MA

so roughly about 13 clubs to bring all together...and they all have to want it..so yeah more then 1-2 years IMO

natural evolution for most still IMO puts it past 3 years..more into 5

also another issues I see..and have tested to some extent

to start a series you really need a strong "core" base..or promote to all the local golfers...I will say I now understand why a local wouldn't wanna do the nefa series..esp nowadays finals format..and predict if they could be drawn to begin with they would love a smaller more acute series..

so to transition locals to casual-league is difficult...and casual to nefa is almost impossible for most---I now see leagues growing so maybe it is now time to all restart the thoughts on smaller string of courses series..added with the promotion nefa might/is at least thinking of one day transitioning spots to the NERD from the smaller series might help to gain steam..

so now you gotta run a series..you can A. piggey back events..and that is difficult cuz to add more fees to an event is tough to cover smaller series fees as well...B they sell out quick enough as is nowadays...so that would negate trying to get the casuals interest for the future years cuz they would never get in in time.....so that really leaves C..start a series...set up for the entire year and hope and pray you get players..I have tried and it is tough to say the least...at the number of peeps I seen it would 100% be years to come before ya seen the traffic/organization/kinks all worked out and streamlined for a bid

IDK ramble over

Titan_Bariloni wrote:GMDGC..seems to be on big thang..maybe include the deaf club in this as well or separate IDK

Separate please.

The deaf club aka NEDDG does not belong nor associated with any of the hearing clubs that you suggested.

NEDDG is its own entity and covers all 6 states in New England as whole (in a small way).

NEDDG hosts its own annual deaf tournaments about 8 to 13 times per year. Will post up NEDDG's 2014 tournament schedule soon.

That is why I'm asking for reserve spots for the members of NEDDG that qualifies for NEDGC.

Just came out of disc golf hibernation and realized it's time to renew my membership for 2014. I actually paused this year for a moment, because I was a bit blindsided by last year's format changes and it was a bit frustrating as a (then) resident of MA who played a majority of tourneys in NH and VT due to preference and family reasons.

I know said format changes were posted all over the forum, but for those who aren't on here a ton, yet renew their NEFA memberships annually, there's a bit of complacency. The "everything remains the same" assumptions are made if changes aren't mailed with your documentation or shoved directly in your face. I did contemplate not renewing, but then remembered like Titan always preached... you don't pay for the point series and whatnot. You help out the growth of our sport regionally and the point series/finals is an added bonus. So quickly remembering that I renewed and then came on here to see if any changes were made.

Glad to see this thread (somewhat) develop. Bill's comments were spot on. I think Jeff and others not only acknowledge them, but have already addressed them. Two points I'd like to make before I crawl back into my hole.

1) The region thing was a disappointment last year. I only played one MA event (as a MA resident), but I think I had more than enough to qualify for NH/VT. It's a moot point now as I just moved to NH and will still play a majority in NH/VT. However, the issue remains that if for some reason you choose to be a part of a certain disc golf region, yet your mattress lies a few miles over a border in a region where you don't compete, you should be allowed to be ranked in the region where you play the most. If you are willing to declare your intention beforehand to qualify in that region only, it should absolutely be allowed... perhaps with State Rep approval.

2) HOLY [bleep] - we only have ~200 active members?!?!? That's "Never Nude" numbers! (sorry for the obscure TV reference but it's totally the correct analogy - "There are literally dozens of us... DOZENS!!!" )
I know we will probably get more renewals as the season gets going, but I was shocked at that number as currently displayed. There could be more bag tag buyers at Devens league than NEFA members this time next year... and Devens is in the heart of NEFA.
NEFA Points/Finals/Championships may be losing some prestige. Maybe one step forward in logistics was viewed as two steps back in members' minds in tradition/familiarity. I don't know, but I will point out some quick flaws I feel present...

a) Divisions - As Arty put earlier, if there was only 1 spot out of 17 competitors, I can see why no one cared in that division. I honestly think we have too many divisions. I don't want to be "that guy", but in a sport where tourneys can only hold a minimum of 72 players, offering 10+ divisions doesn't work... especially when Pro, AM1, and AM2 are so heavy compared to the others. So when the turnout in the other divisions is low, yet we keep subdividing them (AM, PM, AGM, PGM, FA2, FA1, FPO) and then try to give them the equal traction in Finals/Championships, it gets a bit ridiculous. 1 spot was probably mathematically the proportional number of entries allowed. But that's not fun for anyone. He/She plays uncontested, and another potential competitor from a larger division got shut out for the "1 person division". Either we need to break apart some divisions to different courses/days, or consider consolidation come Finals/Championships. If we keep adding divisions, before we know it we could have 72 divisions! It's hyperbole, but makes the point. We all have differences, but there needs to be a way to make sure we're not breaking out into too many separate groups... especially when overall scores between two different groups end up being comparable. (Side note: I'm not picking on any division here. I wish all divisions were equally justifiable, all with the same number of participants. It's just unfortunately not the case and it shouldn't be ignored in talks about Championships)

b) Accessibility - If I'm correct, there were fewer state "qualifier" events in 2013 than overall NEFA Points events in 2012 in a given state. The "qualifier" events certainly hold an extra amount of weight, but if there aren't enough "qualifier" events for some to compete, interest is quickly lost. Either all NEFA events need to be held as "qualifiers" or the overall number of "qualifiers" needs to go way up. Again, I'm doing this from memory, so my recollections may be a bit off, and apologize in advance if the case.

c) Feasibility - We are trying to satisfy all of New England which means either all states get a chance to hold championships, or there's always a central location. The former can alienate those who get a resulting mega-drive by living as far away as possible. If everyone "splits the difference" and chooses central location, there is a massive advantage to the central players... and it happens to be where the most players are... so outside players (already less in numbers compared to MA) may feel at as substantial disadvantage to drive to MA play an overwhelming amount of MA players at an MA course.

The only thing I can recommend is to look at the structure as all divisions aren't equal in numbers, and each region's population plays into applicable discrepancies even more. Pyramids are very good for structure (the course ain't that bad either). Organizational structure, management... heck, even things like the NCAA March Madness brackets follows that same philosophy. A lot at the base, and above that is less, and above that is less, and above that there is fewer. They're steady, they follow a pattern, each tier increase comes with a drop off in people but added in skill. Basically the best ones avoid bottlenecks at any point, and anyone at the base can see the same path to the top as anyone else at the base.

If someone in NEFA sees a bottleneck or obstacle (not enough qualifiers, not enough interest, no competition...etc) that person may not contribute and the whole format suffers. NEFA needs to figure out how to avoid bottlenecks/obstacles with multiple divisions across multiple states with varying populations. When they do that, they'll have a strong case to be the must-play series around.

Finally, some other suggestions to grow NEFA numbers:

1) Perhaps focus less on course development, and more on existing leagues. People who learn about disc golf start off as casuals, then maybe catch wind of a league, try that, and if they like the competitive and organized aspect, consider local tourneys and maybe then NEFA/PDGA. The untapped resource for NEFA memberships I don't think lies in getting never-ever's to sign up. It lies in getting those getting their feet wet with organized leagues to make the jump into tourneys (and along the way showing them how NEFA helps courses like the ones they're playing more and more). I'd bet out of the ~200 (pure guess) different people that showed up to Devens league this year, maybe 20-40 of them are NEFA members. There's probably 100-150 members right in front of us weekly that heard of NEFA but don't join. If NEFA did things like sanctioning some leagues, making them somehow competitive (maybe a separate series or something) it could garner interest. Also, what about the 2-for-1 deal? Isn't that only in January when all the seasonal league players are out of the loop? What about NEFA going to leagues in April/May and offering the 2-for-1 deal for 2 new members for a full calendar year, so that it expires the following May (when NEFA comes back for renewals)? I think there are hundreds of league members out there who are more likely to join with ideas like I just stated than trying to get new courses and then having those newbie locals join. Love me some new courses, don't get me wrong. This is just a suggestion from a membership PoV.

2) Further encourage cross-state play. What if each NEFA event had a state/region champion point for each division? The winner (or highest ranking NEFA member) of each division gets a point for their state. At the end of the year you tally up the number of champ points in each state/region and divide that into the overall number available in their state (This would make all states on a level playing field, as without this, it would probably be MA with the most tournies, with a bunch of MA people playing/winning). The state that has the highest percentage (brought the most points into the state while allowing few to leave the state) would get some perk from NEFA (i.e. a new practice basket for a course of their choice, or maybe new signs, or something). That not only would encourage players to cross state borders, but also kind of increase the interstate competitiveness as you're trying to win for your home region. It's like a super complicated version of capture the flag, but could be interesting.

Ok, that should make up for months of not posting on here. Crawling back into my hole now. See you all when the season begins

A few things to point out. The NEFA membership is an annual membership, so come January 1st, there aren't going to be a ton of active members. Heck, I've been waiting to re-up my own membership until I can find a new member to bring along on my payment. I want to say last year we ended with over 450 active members.

We are putting together an e-newsletter to get the important topics out there and in the hands of members. That will be published and sent out to the entire membership. Hopefully the information blast will help clear up some questions that a lot of people have.

As far as the discussion that took place at the end of last year in this particular thread, we heard the concerns and adjusted for 2014. This was a total departure in how we handled things in the past. The system was focused heavily on people centrally located (IE: MA). The outliers didn't really have a drive to compete or even become members and it was actively discussed that many would not continue as members. With a complete change like this come some growing pains, but all told, the new format was a benefit to most. A list of the changes that are implemented for this upcoming season can be seen here:

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=11815

Finally, as far as getting league players involved in NEFA, it comes down to getting the word out by the membership. The membership is NEFA. To expand and see it grow, comes with the membership bringing up the benefits of joining with those casual players at your leagues or local tournaments. Sanctioning leagues is a whole can of worms and hasn't really been successful for PDGA either. Not saying that it wouldn't necessarily work for us here, but it will take a lot of planning and organization. I would be interested how this would work exactly.

hello al val mac

getting excited for the 2 new seasons of TRB..?

hello al val mac

getting excited for the 2 new seasons of TRB..?

The Big Albowski is back baby. Just threw at a TC for the first time in months over the weekend and it felt good. Can't wait the new season of tourneys and am counting the days to new TPB material.

I would say typically VT has around 20 NEFA members. The year Finals was in VT there were probably double that. I do like the old format of rotating Finals within the NEFA states and it clearly encourages membership in the host state. The bid process seems like a good way to possibly get back to this.

NEFA Finals at Smuggs would be even better then the one at Sugie!