Pelham layout change!!!

[Nyles_Johnson]

I played the course today. I thought it was great. I know that some of the holes are tough (impossible?) to birdie, but the challenge is what makes it fun. I liked practicing on the old course. Layups and putting on the front nine especially. The new course was more like a typical course in NE. I do see a problem at the end of the 18th hole, you have to walk down the fairway of the 2nd hole to get back to the parking lot. There should be an easier way out, so as not to hold up play.

[Seth McQuade]

Played the course yesterday and was quite impressed and very jealous for those who live nearby. I thought their was a good mix of left turns and right as well as good distance for a short course. Def didn't need to throw drivers but i love working mids. I really liked see a group of guys playing while carring a metal rake to flatten the tee boxes. I asked if they were the group working on the course, their response was that they wanted to keep the course looking good...Impressive. I am now actually excited to go visit my inlaws!! goood work to all those involved in the makeover!

[Roy Doar]

I played the course today. I thought it was great. I know that some of the holes are tough (impossible?) to birdie, but the challenge is what makes it fun. I liked practicing on the old course. Layups and putting on the front nine especially. The new course was more like a typical course in NE. I do see a problem at the end of the 18th hole, you have to walk down the fairway of the 2nd hole to get back to the parking lot. There should be an easier way out, so as not to hold up play.

thanks Nyles (& Seth) ... a path has been cut from pin #18 along the woods-line fairly straight out to the ballfield fence ... then players can proceed left to the parking lot and not impact any play on 1 or 2... the pathway is so new ( unused ) and uncleared that it's still easy to miss ... good directional signage is still on the "to do" list as is much tee upgrade work ( on 6, 7 !!!, 13, 14, &15 ) and significant rough clearing ( on 10, 14, 15, &17 ) ... the "volunteer" crew is due to return for a day or 2 in the coming weeks , so the "fatal" flaws will be addressed

[Roy Doar]

great to hear of local tee rakers... this course deserves an active local club ... since the P & Rec. Dir. said he would like this to be the "envy " of the area , I can imagine deluxe tee signs, scorecards, benches on tees, etc. ... we'll see ... expect a nice picnic table at "the turn" on the rise above the river (Beaver Brook , I believe) soon

[Chuck Deb]

My friends and I do our part to try and clean up. We would like to start a "adopt a hole" program. Basically... pick a hole, keep it clean, plant some flowers, stick a bench there....whatever. Maybe we can start a formal program. I would be willing to help implement it. I'll run it by Brian at Parks & Rec. What do you all think?

[Roy Doar]

C, great call... though, it still needs hours of "grunt" work before any of the holes are worthy of "adoption" , I think ... in the meantime , playing while dragging and filling small / medium trash bags and creating neat brush piles will help the park users and the critters who call the woods home ... vandal-proof benches worthy of a nice course are heavy, expensive, and labor intensive ... and lets get the players out there to stop breaking the existing flora (to suit their lies) before putting the time, effort, & $ into planting flowers, you know? Its folks like you guys that will make this effort blossom ... any sign makers among you? later, r

[Alan MacLean]

Roy (and others),

As you know I've been the voice of opposition to the changes. Though I can admit there are some things I do like (I personally love new #9 and have put it within 15' twice in two times played... thanks brush guarding green!) I severely miss the things I liked about the old layout and the reasons I still went to Pelham even after I moved out of the surrounding area.

I could keep bashing the course, but today I'm in a good mood so I thought about how the course could be improved even greater. Where are the obvious weaknesses, and what were the strong points? Is there any way the course could meet the desires of everyone? Here is what a lot of wasted company time has just resulted in. Please feel free to comment or PM me about any of these ideas:

Weaknesses to new layout:
- Some new holes (3, 4, 14, 15, 16)
- Lost the best 3 hole stretch on the course (9-10-11)
- No beginner layout (that doesn't require walking a mile)
- New tee boxes and Old box 14/New box 7 as well as New 16

Strengths:
- New Hole 9
- New 10 (if cleared)
- New 17 (if cleared)

Here is my solution which I think addresses just about everything above with minor course altering...

Hole 1) As-is
Hole 2) As-is
Hole 3) Start to the left where Old 7's flat tee used to be. Move the basket to Old 8's deep fairway (think the monster log).
Hole 4) Old Hole 9.
Hole 5) Make a double-long box (think 3 and 5 at Devens). Hole 5 would be old hole 10, eliminating new 16.
Hole 6) Old Hole 11 Tee with basket a little past New 14's tee towards Old 11's basket but not as far. This would eliminate New 14 and 15.
Hole 7) Play the parallel fairway to Old 11 with a basket either where Current 4's basket is or bring it back to where Old 11 was.
Hole 8) New Hole 5 as-is
Hole 9) New Hole 6 as-is
Hole 10) New Hole 7 as-is
Hole 11) New Hole 8 as-is
Hole 12) New Hole 9 as-is
Hole 13) New Hole 10 as-is
Hole 14) New Hole 11 as-is
Hole 15) New Hole 12 as-is
Hole 16) New Hole 13 as-is (though I'd personally like to go back to the original tee)
Hole 17) New Hole 17 as-is. This requires a minimal walk and would share the double-long tee with Proposed Hole 5 (Old 10) going in the other direction.
Hole 18) New Hole 18 as-is

As you can see, this keeps 13/18 holes in tact, eliminates the 3 worst holes IMO (New 14-15-16) but brings back some of the best holes (9-10-most of 11), and fixes the issues with Hole 3 (bad box, beginners doomed for the pit). This could greatly help the "improving" of the course. In addition, it opens up a possibility of a 9-hole beginner course which would use 1 and 2 and then require only 7 more baskets which could loop on the unused trails from Current Hole 4 to Current Hole 13. That's obviously for a later date. Also as far as benches and signs, those should be the last thing addressed as the course play is paramount. However, there is a very easy way to do both. That massive tree that's currently down on Current Hole 9's fairway can be cut into a ton of pieces. Two could be placed at every or every other hole as stump-benches (Devens) and thinner trunk slices could made for some really unique home-made signs.

Thoughts???

[Chuck Deb]

Alan,

At first glance/read your post seems quite long and I almost got lost. But after some thought a lot of your suggestions really make sense. Although I will have to print this out and walk the course to put my eyes on it... . I too miss holes 9,10 and 11 and I also like your thoughts about hole 3. I'm sure this course will develop over time with great suggestions like these.

I understand your comments about the "adopt a hole" coming in time. I was just thinking of idea that we could all pinch in to do a little part. If people each picked a hole think how fast it would come together. In time Im sure this will be a great course.

Roy,

What kind of signs are you looking for? We already have the existing signs that need to be moved. Are you looking to replace those or create new signs for other purposes (at the tee boxes).

[Alan MacLean]

Though the post is long vertically, it really is comprised of a lot of bulletted points. If you walk the course, thinking of what I wrote, my layout makes a lot of sense. Plus another thing I forgot to mention is that it eliminates RHBH beginners hyzering from the tee of Current 14 into the green of Current 13 (about as close to "crossing-fairways" as you can get without actually crossing).

I think for signs, Roy was hinting that additional signs would be helpful at each tee box. The black-on-white signs at the park are great for locating the next tee after finishing a hole. But when you get to the box, some additional info could be a great help with distance, routes available, elevation changes... etc. You'd be surprised how different my disc selection can be between 200-300'. Having that info up front can result in players making better disc choices and better shots. Heck, I've parked Current 8 (old 15) with a Rhyno and a Firebird (obviously different routes).

Signs can easily be home-made... or if the course gets to "that" level, then professional signs w/ sponsorships are a possibility.

[Roy Doar]

alan, thanks for your input ... my head hurts a bit trying to imagine redesigning a redesign... kind of like turning an omelette into a quiche ... but instead of just telling you to stick it, I read thru your layout and realized that without old 9, 10, & 11, you will not be happy... well, sorry, in creating a course w/ flow, and balance, turning 10 & and 11 backwards and creating 3 holes in the process seems to be working out... 1st: the pars for the old #s 9, 10, & 11 were, arguably, 2.5 , 3, & 3.5 ... no matter how much you liked them, they were weak holes on a weak course ... if they were worthy, they would still be in play ! ... 2nd: new 14 is a great hole! (for the size of muldoon) & 15 is still being thinned to provide a right side option & 16 is old 10 backwards & gets you to 2 nice finishing holes... complaining prior to completion of the project is basically whining from the the sidelines ... when great throwers like you are bored w/ birding 14, you can move back to the gold tee 30, or 50, or 70, or 100 feet back down the old 11th fway... gold tees are tourney-worthy pro tees that add interest and difficulty to an otherwise "easy" par 3 ... potential holes for gold tees are 1, 3, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, & 18. 3rd: PLEASE stop worrying about newbies in the pit, or "crossing" into pin 13 from the 14th tee ... white tees have validity... they're just not in yet, OK? ... they don't have to "walk a mile" (unless they want to) ... in fact, have you noticed that a quick 9-hole loop can be 1-4 then 14-18 (the "front" nine) ... I could go on explaining good course design, but I'm sick of having to justify every little point to you... so, hope you can be a part of the upgrade instead of the anchor dragged along while it occurs ... next spring, maybe you can lead the creation of muldoon phase 3 ... BTW, did you consider that your proposed #3 blows right across #18 ... and do you seriously think a tee on a "signature" hole (old 9, old 12, old 18) should be blocked by a big tree? ... just admit it, please, the old design sucked, even if you loved it ... fixing it was easy, really ... typing fast is hard


chuck, Yes, tee signs & "next tee > " signs

[Alan MacLean]

Roy,

You know those people that say "Not to be a d*ck, but..." and then say something rude, but think they've justified it by prefacing it with "Not to be a d*ck"? That's what your last post was. So I'll just go ahead and tell you (in your words) to "stick it" because now I can rant like you just did but didn't pussyfoot the first few sentences an in attempt to soften the blow.

First off, you really need to think before you type. How does my proposed #3 interfere with #18? I've pushed the tee over to the left, (POV from the tee) taking the tee of 18 more out of the way, and moved the basket straight back into the fairway of old 8. If anything, YOUR #3 has those on 18 more at risk. Alan - 1, "Professional course designer" - 0.

Second, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. Playing #10 in reverse as #16 doesn't make it the same hole. Old #10 went down left, up right, and then cut left. A "Z" of a hole. New #16 is a hyzer shot over only one of the bends with a predictable basket. Just because you used 75% of the common fairway doesn't allow you to say it's the same hole. What used to be a fairly common '4' and satisfying '3' on the card is now a pretty easy birdie... unless you rolled your ankle on the new tee in which case you'd have a 'DNF' on the card. Alan - 2, Course Designer - 0.

Third, Gold tees??!?!?!?! You're going to come out of thin air, redesign a course without anyone else's input, and try to win everyone over with terms like flow, improvements and Gold Tees? Where are you going to put Gold #1... in the stream, or on the kids' soccer field? Where is Gold 3 going to be... on 2's green? Same for #5. Same for #9. Hole 11 will require about 1 thousand trees to be removed. If you want to make longer tees on #14, you are essentially making it Old 11 in reverse... but 11 had a more strategic tee placement and was the longest hole on the course. Basket 14 isn't that special. Giving yourself credit for making 14 'long' (for that course) when in reality you took a hole that was 500'+ and making it 375' with a non-existing and theoretical "gold tee" is nothing to be proud of. Alan - 3, Course Designer - 0.

Fourth, you use the term "worthy"

... if they were worthy, they would still be in play !

as if there were thousands of hate posts on this forum, and crowds of players with pitchforks and burning torches at town hall demanding these holes be removed. In reality, they were the three most UNIQUE holes on the course. Old #9 was basic but fun because of that gap. Old #10 was arguably the hardest hole on the course. Old #11 was the longest hole on ANY layout (old or new) by 100'+. But you write them off, and of course if YOU write them off, then it's gospel. Sorry all mighty. Alan - 3, Course Designer - 1 Million (in your eyes)

And the tree on #9, although questionable in its placement, could be resolved by moving the tee box 3' to the left. You don't have to verbally crap all over the hole in its entirety and then remove it alltogether. It was a great opportunity for players to learn the risk/reward 175' approach shot where you don't want to go short, long, left, or right.

My "redesign" conceeded ALL the changes you proposed, while fixing hole 3, getting rid of the 3 worst holes, and replacing them with the three best holes from the old layout. I will never admit the old layout sucked (good for what it was, a beginner/family/baby friendly course)... especially to a person who has "improved" it with gems like #15 (W.H.I.N.E) and a butchered #16.

[Mike Davis]

I played the course yesterday, it is in ROUGH shape but I did like some of it. (new 9 and 10 were nice) I miss old hole #9 and I am going to miss the easy front nine that I had planned on taking my 6 y/o to learn on, but all in all the course seems like it will be decent and more challenging after ALOT more work.

I do agree with alan on some things, look at a few of his idea changes...they would prob. make the course better, stay calm and look into it a bit.

I do appreciate all your work, and I understand you dont want to change your changes, but it may be the best bet for all players.

P.S You should bring ol' #9 back!

[Roy Doar]

A, you win ... you made great points ... guess I was wrong ... out of thin air, w/o input from anyone else (and you know this how? ), I turned a good course into a boring piece of crap. As yours is the voice of reason, experience, and the majority of local players, I'm ready to endorse all of your suggestions : #3 - old tee 7 > old pin 8 ; #4 - old 9 ; #5 - old 10 ; #6 - shorter (why?) old 11 ; #16- w/original tee ; after 16, walking to shared tee (5/17) ... of course you ( or someone you know ) will be willing and able to coordinate w/ the work crew on their next available days ... forget white tees , unless you think they're worth the effort ... forget gold tees (sorry I mentioned them , or flow, or balance) ... no, I'm not a professional course designer - yet - but I can dream , can't I ? Muldoon phase 2 is all yours now ... good luck ... btw, congrats on your ace on Devens #18 ... ( I just read that somewhere )

[Doug Callaghan]

A, you win ... you made great points ... guess I was wrong ... out of thin air, w/o input from anyone else (and you know this how? ), I turned a good course into a boring piece of crap. As yours is the voice of reason, experience, and the majority of local players, I'm ready to endorse all of your suggestions : #3 - old tee 7 > old pin 8 ; #4 - old 9 ; #5 - old 10 ; #6 - shorter (why?) old 11 ; #16- w/original tee ; after 16, walking to shared tee (5/17) ... of course you ( or someone you know ) will be willing and able to coordinate w/ the work crew on their next available days ... forget white tees , unless you think they're worth the effort ... forget gold tees (sorry I mentioned them , or flow, or balance) ... no, I'm not a professional course designer - yet - but I can dream , can't I ? Muldoon phase 2 is all yours now ... good luck ... btw, congrats on your ace on Devens #18 ... ( I just read that somewhere )

Seems like you and Alan obviously care about the course and you both want to improve it. By my count thats at least two things you dont disagree on. The big sticking points seem to be just a few holes. Id like to come up and help, ill watch out for a future work day. Good luck!

[Roy Doar]

after sleeping on it, I'm too invested in Muldoon phase 2 to let it go, so w/ some time to pop in today, I checked out the 2.5 suggestions and found a way to make it work ... old #7 tee > old# 8 pin DOES blow right right thru the new 18th tee (even if we moved IT back to old 6's tee ), so how about old 7's tee to current 3's pin as #3 ... then old 9 as #4 ... then old 10 as #5 ... then most of old 11 as #6 ... now we are forced to find a decent hole btwn #6 & #17 that doesn't feel forced ( like #15 does now, even tho I saw it's potential as " definitely doable " ) ... walking from the new #15 (old 18) across the new #6 (old 11th) fairway is a sucky compromise, but since it's not my back yard after all, and the clamor to " save old # 9 and old # 10 " is deafening, I say , what the hell ? Hey ! why not play a hole across that little swale and actually cross fairways , ( like Amesbury 9 & 10 ) , instead of just walk it? ... there's our needed hole! ( can you picture the graphics on that tee sign? ) " warning! disc crossing ahead " ... I'd say "problem solved" but must stop acting omnipotent

[Roy Doar]

Had another chance to "walk the earth" in Pelham today and realized that, as they say, 1st impression was best ... at least for the moment ... 2 groups were on the 13 -16 loop and said they really liked the change ... " it's a real course now "... they didn't miss 9, and hated old 10 ( and 16 is closer to 90% of old 10 than 3/4) ... I did find a tee location for #16 alt to play across the swale back to tee17, (a nice hole really), but saw it as wrong, to appease a few, to scrap the work done in creating new #3, #4, and #s 14 & 15...( tho much clearing is still ahead for 15, I know )... the alternate 4, 5, 6, & 16, can be made ready for periodic/ seasonal (or event specific round 2) layout change w/ a bit of tee prep and good signage ... and w/ old tees 6, 7, 13 ( on 18, 3, and 13 respectively) still playable, players, solo or groups, can opt for their tee of choice ...a good thing on a good golf course... also walked back 60 -80 feet on #14 and marked a long tee ( gold or blue ) that makes it a pro par 3 ... that's one of the great things about Muldoon, the plethora of tee spot options ... like old 5, 9, 12, 13, even old 11's tee was dumb (for such an otherwise nice, long hole) ... yes, tees need to be level, flat, firm, and root free w/markers at grade and doing that ( x18 or x36 ) in the woods of New England is nut-busting work ... we're lucky to have a crew of workers who were willing, able AND thrilled to be out in the fresh air, doing it ... someone's got to, right?

[Matt Stroika]

Happy to have you 'walking the Earth' Roy. I am making plans to get there to see it with the NH NASA pros soon. Promise to provide some feedback.

[Chuck Deb]

Oh boy...I am utterly confused now.

[Roy Doar]

sorry C ... too many #s and vintages, I know ... any chance you'll be out there this Sunday? ...wife, weather, and work permitting, I'll be there for some more clearing and planning ... for now, keep walking the new path from #18 thru the woods to the path along the fence ... and keep looking here for next work crew days ... thanks, later, r

[Chuck Deb]

I can be there Sunday. I live literally minutes away right on Mammoth Rd. By the way, I couldn't find the path at 18, saw water between 18 and the fence. I gotta look harder I guess.

[Chuck Deb]

I just realized Sunday is Mothers Day. My availability may be limited.

[Chris Mergemekes]

I played the course on Thursday. It's definitely different. I think some improvements are still in order, mainly the tee boxes. I don't like being confined to a 4x5 box, and it's safer to have a flat, level tee pad, rather than a dug-out box (Devens also has this issue). I'd like to see the beams at the back of the boxes disappear, at least. Also, there is at least one that's on a 45 degree angle, which should be leveled. I also missed the exit path from 18, and walked down 2 fairway, but now I know. I thought the overall layout was pretty good. I think it's a good amateur course. I shot three over and had many birdie ops, just missed the longer putts, so I think for big arm throwers, it might get a little repetative - Drive, putt, drive, putt, etc. Finally, beware the poison ivy. It is everywhere.

Thanks for the hard work on the course.

[Matt Stroika]

Poison oak or poison ivy? I didnt know there was P.O. in NH. I had that once and it is way worse than ivy.

[Chris Mergemekes]

Poison oak or poison ivy? I didnt know there was P.O. in NH. I had that once and it is way worse than ivy.

My bad. I meant poison ivy. I guess I'm still in NorCal mode. I corrected my previous post.

[Roy Doar]

chris , the upgrade is still far from over ... the tee box issues is one of the three main points of the upgrade... did you notice that many of the boxes have lost the back board and have been lowered to grade (ground level)? ... those that you mentioned are high on the "to do" list ... once we have 18 respectable holes, with blue and white tees, longer tee/pin locations (the gold layout) will be carefully introduced for the benefit of the expert player ... thanks for your patience ...

[Roy Doar]

Progress made in Pelham today : serious thinning on holes 10, 13, 14, 15 and a bit on 17... the path from 18 cut , cleaned and marked, and bucking up blowdown on 9 ... noticed a fair amt. of personal lie enhancement... may whoever nipped that young blueberry protecting 10 never birdie that (or any other) hole again till making proper amends ... serious tee upgrades to occur soon... Muldoon will rock!

[Lowell Richard]

Roy,
Haven't seen the latest upgrades, but you're doing a great job thus far. Can't wait for the tee upgrades! Thank you for all your work...course is much more enjoyable already.

[Jeff_Streeter]

I definitely agree the course is coming along. Still alot of work to be done. But I know it takes time to fine tune holes. My only question's to Roy would be...Do you play? If you where looking right to basket 9 how much wooded area is over there? Can holes be changed to make the river on 11 utilized more? All the saplings in the middle of fairway 9 should be removed the line of pine tree's are a good enough barrier. (My 2 cents) I love the new course, way better than the old one, but totally agree that for me it's drive putt, drive putt. It needs more defined hyzer/anhyzer holes.Most of the new holes are pretty much a straight shot with a small hyzer/anhyzer at the end. I have helped design/create a couple courses and would love to walk around with you and see if there was any other options available. Come down on Sunday at 10:30 we can play a round and discuss it.

[Roy Doar]

J, Do I play ? ... really? ... yeah, every now & then when I get a chance ... like, for the last 35 years ... Anyway, because #9 sits at the middle of peninsula w/ neighborhood to the left, and #10 to the right ( and soon a picnic table out behind overlooking the river), it is pretty much set where it is ...if you are currently unchallenged by muldoon, you'll have to help establish the gold tees which will add distance/difficulty on nearly half of the holes... remember that we are attempting a fair par 3/ 54 course for all skill levels ( a reason that the tree trap down the middle of fairway #9 must stay intact ) ... as to the right, left, straight balance: 1- hyzer, 2-hyzer, 3- straight then <, 4-straight then > w/a fast green, 5- right to left S and long , 6 & 7 - straight or die, 8- cute, 9- either hyzer or anhyzer , not straight, 10 - straight, 11-hyzer, 12 - uphill anhyzer, 13- slight uphill straight, then right to well guarded pin, 14- long double S to pin (look behind current tee to pro tee 80 feet back), 15- working to provide a right option, 16- hyzer , 17-straight , 18- low ceiling downhill hyzer ... in theory, it sounds pretty easy to the strong RHBH player, like me, (& you ?)... so, what is your best score at this layout? I'm not proposing to host an NT event there, ever, but am comfortable knowing that Muldoon Phase 2 will benefit the vast majority of players and peripherals involved ... Sunday schedule to be determined ... will make it if possible, r

[Karl Molitoris]

Jeff,
Don't forget...

and

Roy
It looks like you know...

...that it is paramount to understand that a course MUST have a defined "purpose". No one course can be everything to everyone (or even "nice" or "good" or "challenging" to everyone). Maybe Muldoon's purpose is / should be to 'challenge' a lesser-skilled player. We all have the tendency to think of / design a course that challenges US. And US varies in abilities!

And it may not be as simple as just "adding a new set of tees" - to challenge the next (or next few) "levels" of players.

Who ever is in charge of 'course design' (whatever the course may be) will ultimately - whether consciously or de facto - be the one who carves in stone 'the purpose'.
I'd always advocate doing it consciously...in that way it will be at least "perfect" for ONE type of player.

Karl