NEFA DISCussion

He's asking if a disc is still legal when a disc goes out of production.

Yes, it is.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:The posted article provides the context. The text of the rule and QA37 is shown on screen. Every putting clip indicates Fault and Okay. Not a PDGA clip but a "Chuck as volunteer" video piece. So no full captioning but then I don't add much more in the narration anyway than what's already provided in text on the screen.

Yes to all three questions on F-1 and F-2.

Ok, I'm sorry for pointing you as assuming that you're speaking for PDGA. Never mind!

Really about F-2 question? I find it hard to fault players for lifting their foot away from the marker just before they just release the disc. You know?

1) Foot on marker
2) Twist body toward basket to line up for putt or approach
3) Then make the rotating motion
4) Then making the release JUST micro second after lifting the foot away from the marker.

That I should find fault for it, is it?

Maybe I should make a video of various situations and let you make the calls.

I'm not sure what you're concerned with in terms of a fault? If the player has a supporting point in contact with the playing surface behind their mark on the line of play and no other contact point closer to the basket than their mark at the time of release, the player has initiated an appropriate putt. As long as they then demonstrate balance after releasing the putt per QA37 before moving forward, they've not faulted.

Todd Lapham wrote:He's asking if a disc is still legal when a disc goes out of production.

Yes, it is.

Yep, that's what I was asking. thanks.

I understand that a disc that gets wedged into the top of the basket or into the cage is not good, but what about a disc that goes through the front of the cage and comes to rest in the basket? Is this rule stating that it is not considered holed out?

803.13 Holing Out:

B: Disc Entrapment Devices: ...A disc observed by two or more players of the group or an official to have entered the target below the top of the tray or above the bottom of the chain support is no holed out.

I think that rule is pretty clear. If it goes though the cage it doesn't count. If it was unwitnessed the benefit of the doubt goes to the player.

Why was this rule put in place? What does it matter how the disc gets into the basket?

Matt DeAngelis wrote:Why was this rule put in place? What does it matter how the disc gets into the basket?

Matt did you have a wedged disc go though recently and not have it count? Putt higher.

Kenji Cline wrote:

Matt DeAngelis wrote:Why was this rule put in place? What does it matter how the disc gets into the basket?

Matt did you have a wedged disc go though recently and not have it count? Putt higher.

Ha, nope! I was following a different thread that brought the situation up. Found it strange and didn't know what the justfication was for the rule. It has probably already been brought up elsewhere.

Kenji Cline wrote:

Matt DeAngelis wrote:Why was this rule put in place? What does it matter how the disc gets into the basket?

Matt did you have a wedged disc go though recently and not have it count? Putt higher.

This Matt did. I would have liked to putt a bit higher but it was a pretty decent putt. Downhill, into the wind, about 60 feet, right through a regulation basket landing completely in the basket, no wedge.

I guess that skin didn't count, Stroika:) You owe me dollar!

Mike_Andrews wrote:I guess that skin didn't count, Stroika:) You owe me dollar!

Do you accept Sacagawea coins?

I have in the recent past...

Mike check your PM. Thanks!

chuck

if baskets at a course are not pdga approved does this prevent the course from having a pdga event?

I think no (I refer to Buff I guess and a few others)

does it just determine if the event can be an A tier and above or are there other issues

thanks

Can a player take casual relief if their disc lands in poison ivy?

I thought you could, but was told different at a tournament yesterday.

Thanks.

No default casual relief for poison ivy unless indicated by the TD for specific patches of it.

Todd Lapham wrote:Can a player take casual relief if their disc lands in poison ivy?

I thought you could, but was told different at a tournament yesterday.

Thanks.

I think it is only if the TD announces it at the start of the event. Same thing applies to water, briars, whatever course condition that the TD wants to be casual. If it is not announced and a player wants to take relief from poison ivy or briars or anything else, then I think it would be a hazardous lie and the rule that applies.

Titan,

Look at page 3 for the table showing the target expectations for each tier. You can usually get a variance to use non-PDGA targets in X-tiers: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/Tou ... rds_v3.pdf

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Titan,

Look at page 3 for the table showing the target expectations for each tier. You can usually get a variance to use non-PDGA targets in X-tiers: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/Tou ... rds_v3.pdf

Looks like Buff's tournaments should have all been X-tiers then?

Chuck Kennedy wrote:No default casual relief for poison ivy unless indicated by the TD for specific patches of it.

Good to know. Thanks.

Matt DeAngelis wrote:

Todd Lapham wrote:Can a player take casual relief if their disc lands in poison ivy?

I thought you could, but was told different at a tournament yesterday.

Thanks.

I think it is only if the TD announces it at the start of the event. Same thing applies to water, briars, whatever course condition that the TD wants to be casual. If it is not announced and a player wants to take relief from poison ivy or briars or anything else, then I think it would be a hazardous lie and the rule that applies.

Regarding ivy and other plants, the previous posts are correct that it must be specified as casual in order for players to get free relief. But I feel the need to clarify that ALL water is, by default, casual unless stated otherwise. The TD does not have to define it as casual in order for a player to be allowed relief. From the Definitions section (800.00):

Casual Water: Bodies of water other than those that have been specifically designated by the director prior to the start of the round as out-of-bounds or those that have been specifically designated by the director prior to the start of the round as not being casual water.

Basically, if it isn't declared OB and it is not declared to be non-casual, it's casual water. And it is that way so that a player does not need the TD to allow for relief if, say, a storm rolls through mid round and leaves puddles around the course that weren't there at the start of the round/tournament. Players are free to take relief from those puddles with no special permission.

Matt DeAngelis wrote:

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Titan,

Look at page 3 for the table showing the target expectations for each tier. You can usually get a variance to use non-PDGA targets in X-tiers: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/Tou ... rds_v3.pdf

Looks like Buff's tournaments should have all been X-tiers then?

yeah I am confused..

and also if a TD can have 2 meters/no,give casual relief for ivy,brush ect ect
can they also waive the no drinking rule if so desired?

They can waive the "no drinking" rule for those of legal age in parks that already allow it, but only in PDGA sanctioned leagues, not regular sanctioned events.

Titan Bariloni wrote:yeah I am confused..

and also if a TD can have 2 meters/no,give casual relief for ivy,brush ect ect
can they also waive the no drinking rule if so desired?

That's an apples and oranges comparison.

Those options you list as examples are TD actions explicitly allowed for in the rule book. Whether the 2-meter penalty is in play is entirely a TD call. Rule 803.08A states: "The director may declare the two meter rule to be in effect for the entire course, or just for individual obstacles."

Declaring what constitutes a casual obstacle on the course is a TD prerogative explicitly granted by the rules. Rule 803.05B states: "A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles...or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round."

But the PDGA rule on possession/consumption of alcohol during sanctioned play is that it is explicitly disallowed with no exception. The only discretion a TD has is to issue one warning rather than an automatic disqualification for the first violation, but only if the event is a C-tier or lower event. After the warning, it's once again an automatic disqualifiable offense. From Competition Manual section 3.3 B (10): The Tournament Director may, at his sole discretion, elect to issue a warning to the offending player in lieu of disqualification solely at PDGA events sanctioned C-tier or below. If a player has been previously issued a warning for alcohol possession at the same event, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification."


As for Buff's baskets and past PDGAs there, if it was a C-tier, they were fine (non-approved targets are okay for C-tiers without requiring an X). If it's a B-tier or above, it would require an X-tier waiver. I believe way way way back in the day, the Dam Pyramids tournaments were sanctioned XB for that exact reason. But honestly, the only way anything would come of not making a Buff tournament X-tier is if a player lodged a formal complaint with the PDGA about it. And considering I've played A-tier events, and even an NT or two, in which there were varied targets (not all of same design and manufacturer) and those events weren't X-tiered, this does not appear to really be a major breaking point for PDGA events.

thanks for the clear up on baskets

as far as apples and oranges..I just see them as rules..if some "rules" are allowed discretion and some not..that seems like apples and oranges to me

so to confuse things within rules even more we have discretionary rules and non discretionary rules...

not a big deal just always wondered about TD discretion when it comes to the alcohol rule

I know the ratings are unofficial, but why do senior grandmasters and juniors have round ratings for the round at eager beaver today but the legends don't? They played the same layout at the same time. I'd bate for it to miss the books over something small like a data entry error.

Any word on when the PDGA Ratings will be completed for leagues? The PDGA site said they're delayed because of Worlds, but hasn't been updated in a few weeks..

Leagues are being processed in tandem with regular events and will be in the Aug 14th update.

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Leagues are being processed in tandem with regular events and will be in the Aug 14th update.

Thanks Chuck