Course record

[Matt Stroika]

Shot a 59 in singles league playing the blue to blue tees at borderland

Nice work. Only a handful of rounds ever under 60.

[Rick Mahoney]

I am hearing about a 46 in dubz league tonight at Newton Hill, I wasn't there. I am not naming names but... but why should some kid be able to throw drives past the basket on 3 and 12? kaboom

[Kevin Gardner]

Maple Hill Reds: 44

[Keith Hughes]

Maple Hill Reds: 44

Nice shooting kevin

[Isaac Chaney]

43 on the whites(borderland fall finale)

[Mark Valis]

Unless the whites have changed I believe it is Bradley Williams with either a 39 or 40

[Eric Kevorkian]

It was a 40. The layout has changed.

[Matt Stroika]

It was a 40. The layout has changed.

Yawn. One tee moves and now a 43 is better than a 40?

[Arty Graustein]

No one said it was better. Just that it happens to be current course record for that layout. Congrats Isaac.

[Mike Dussault]

I have shot a pair of 43 s since the teebox was moved also...

yea, whatev...

[Eric Kevorkian]

No one said it was better. Just that it happens to be current course record for that layout. Congrats Isaac.

Thank you Arty

[Eric Kevorkian]

No one said it was better. Just that it happens to be current course record for that layout. Congrats Isaac.

Thank you Arty

[Steve Solbo]

No one said it was better. Just that it happens to be current course record for that layout. Congrats Isaac.

Thank you Arty

Ok Tyke.

[Eric Kevorkian]

It was a 40. The layout has changed.

Yawn. One tee moves and now a 43 is better than a 40?

That 40 will be the best round I think i'll ever witness at Borderland. He could have very easily shot a 38!

[Eric Kevorkian]

Borderland, Blue to Blue doubles unofficial course record set today by Mike Drama and myself. 53, 343233333333332333.

Mike and I put a run on that today shooting a 54. 4 on 2, 2 on 4, the rest 3's.

[Steven Dakai]

Geoff Benett's 46 is the new course record for West T since we moved hole #9.

[Keith Burtt]

Pyramids 17 and 18 have changed so im laying claim to the silver course record at 48.


Anyone beat it yet?

[John Tserpes]

Borderland, Blue to Blue doubles unofficial course record set today by Mike Drama and myself. 53, 343233333333332333.

Mike and I put a run on that today shooting a 54. 4 on 2, 2 on 4, the rest 3's.

Still doesnt beat Wills and I 52 from last year Old 14 was harder.

[Eric Kevorkian]

forgot about that one!

I dunno if the old 14 is easier or harder....depends on how your throw. I think the new one is harder than the old one.

[John Tserpes]

I am not talking about a lefty vs righty thing, just in general scoring. Old 14 had OB running the whole left side which came into play a good amount. I bet there was more 5-7s on old 14 compared to the new 14 with no OB on the right side after the wall. Just my opinion but old 14 was harder just because of the OB.

[Steve Solbo]

I bet if you took a scoring average on old vs. new 14... the old one was tougher. Regardless of throwing style... how does that even matter? when you are talking about the difficulty of a hole, doesn't it simply boil down to scoring average, like in ball golf, determine scoring averages is how you determine the handicap of a hole for handicapping/slope rating reasons.

[Karl Molitoris]

Regardless of throwing style... how does that even matter? when you are talking about the difficulty of a hole, doesn't it simply boil down to scoring average, like in ball golf, determine scoring averages is how you determine the handicap of a hole for handicapping/slope rating reasons.

I know no one wants to hear 'reason' in an argument / discussion but scoring averages have everything to do with who contributes TO that average - and everyone throws differently.

Example: If identical (but mirror-images of each other) holes, let's call them "A" and "B" were to be played by only players who predominantly threw rhbh hyzers, and "A" had OB all down the left and "B" had OB all down the right, I'd guess that "A" would be harder - as the hyzerfreaks would 'throw toward but hyzer / skip away from' the trouble. And reverse it for lhbh'ers.
So WHO / WHAT makes up the "averages" is critical.

But in the end, just as ball golf has very imperfect handicap numbers assigned to individual holes, we believe some holes are on average "harder".

"Horses for courses" you know!! What you may destroy will eat me up, etc.

Karl

[Julio M Julio]

Regardless of throwing style... how does that even matter? when you are talking about the difficulty of a hole, doesn't it simply boil down to scoring average, like in ball golf, determine scoring averages is how you determine the handicap of a hole for handicapping/slope rating reasons.

I know no one wants to hear 'reason' in an argument / discussion but scoring averages have everything to do with who contributes TO that average - and everyone throws differently.

Example: If identical (but mirror-images of each other) holes, let's call them "A" and "B" were to be played by only players who predominantly threw rhbh hyzers, and "A" had OB all down the left and "B" had OB all down the right, I'd guess that "A" would be harder - as the hyzerfreaks would 'throw toward but hyzer / skip away from' the trouble. And reverse it for lhbh'ers.
So WHO / WHAT makes up the "averages" is critical.

But in the end, just as ball golf has very imperfect handicap numbers assigned to individual holes, we believe some holes are on average "harder".

"Horses for courses" you know!! What you may destroy will eat me up, etc.

Karl

I think you correct, no one want to hear this

[Karl Molitoris]

Yeh, you're right Julio. Why make sense when you can baffle them with BS .

[Todd Lapham]

Slight problem with that. You yourself even said everyone throws differently, so given a decent sample size, such an extreme example is irrelevant and the result would be an unbiased scoring average.

Unbiased scoring averages are pretty much the only way to track the difficulty of a hole. Without them it would actually be peoples preferences/opinions and not actual data.

Regardless, I don't see how anyone can say that new 14 is harder. You took a hole with OB and a lucky route and changed it to a straight shot with no OB. I don't even see how it's debatable that it's harder.

[Eric Kevorkian]

Todd, It's just my opinion that it's more difficult. I could throw an easy hyzer with not all that much in the way of a "pucker" factor off the old blue tee. Sure, the OB came into play, but not really to the extent the one one does for me. On the new one, the OB (not clearing the rock wall) comes into play much more, as it's a pretty tight shot with a pretty big tree to knock it down and have it stay OB.

[Karl Molitoris]

Todd,

If you're talking about what I said:

You yourself even said everyone throws differently

Yup

so given a decent sample size, such an extreme example is irrelevant

Nope, it TOTALLY relevant...to that person! And if that person is YOU, YOU don't think it's relevant?

and the result would be an unbiased scoring average

Who cares if it's "an unbiased scoring average"? What practical worth would that be? People don't win holes or tournaments with "unbiased scoring averages", they win them with "holes / courses player A can score better on than player B"

Unbiased scoring averages are pretty much the only way to track the difficulty of a hole

Disagree. And what's more important than me disagreeing with you is that the "difficulty of a hole" totally depends on the player...and an "average" has no bearing on any player's score.

Without them it would actually be peoples preferences/opinions and not actual data

It would be 'actual data'...actual data for THAT person (whomever they are)...and THAT'S what counts for THEM (not some useless "average").

If you're not:
Disregard this post of mine.

Karl

[Isaac Chaney]

OK!! so lets all agree that a holes difficulty is relative to the player! As far as which layout on 14 is more difficult? once again, relative to the player. In golf though, its all about probability. For example, myself walking up for the first time on 14 I would assume b2b would net more birdies and pars than the old b2b. But all the time iv spent playing there so far ,when I play white to blue(the old b2b) I birdie it maybe 4 out of 10 times and hardly get any bogeys. the new B2b on the other hand, I birdie that mabye 1 out of 10 times, and iv got quite a few bogeys on it as well. I did ace it though! Even though w2b has proven to be a way easier hole for me to execute, the probability of me getting an ace seems to be greater on b2b, befor I aced, I blew right past the basket in previous rounds almost crushing chains on several occasions, most of the time not even converting it to a birdie, left with a 60ft putt from the brush. But whatever!! anywhere past the basket is good in my book. Peace

[Todd Lapham]

You're talking about individual scoring? I'm saying this statement is irrelevant given a decent sample size of players:

scoring averages have everything to do with who contributes TO that average - and everyone throws differently.

My point was, given a decent sample size and data from scores, scoring averages are the only way to tell the "true difficulty" of a hole. Look at the data from past Vibram Opens: the higher the average score on a hole, the more difficult the hole. I'm sure if you filtered hole 5 to just lefties the scores would drop, but that doesn't change the relative difficulty.

I'm pretty sure Solbo was talking about scoring average for the field to determine difficulty. Obviously some holes are going to be easier for some than others depending on their throwing style, but in this case I'd wager that the scoring average "for the field" has dropped since the hole was moved, hence making the hole "easier."

Who cares if it's "an unbiased scoring average"? What practical worth would that be? People don't win holes or tournaments with "unbiased scoring averages", they win them with "holes / courses player A can score better on than player B"

The people tracking the data would care if it's unbiased. It's pretty worthless if it's just one persons average on a hole to determine the difficulty of said hole. The practical worth would be having a big enough sample size to get a true average on the hole (for the field). Obviously people don't win tournaments on averages, that's what handicapped leagues are for!

[Justin White]

Laforce and myself shot -11 at crane hill today.