Should men be playing in a womans division.

[Bobby Direnzo]

I can't wait to play in the woman's div at tully this weekend. Least I will have a chance to compete and not get killed.

[Shawn Mullen]

delete

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Here we go..........

[Titan Bariloni]

Is said person even a NEFA member yet?

That is the question I would like answered.....

And I would also like to know if/when the "ruling" comes from the PDGA and does not allow a person with male anatomy to play in a women division until transition is complete will the Points be adjusted to reflect this.

If we are to take the PDGA's stance IMO is BS and dumping the problem off to our "daddy" then if it is not in said players favor I think a DQ is in order.

Why not start taking the talks towards a trans gender/sexual division?

Maybe "windchime" could volunteer to work with Solbo and the Board to create a fair division for participants in her similar situation to enjoy forever instead of this "band aid" solution.....I am sure she may know similar people with this issue maybe it would encourage them to play disc golf knowing NEFA is at least trying to be "inclusive to all.
If transgender/sexual people are truly interested in being recognized then I would think this would be the best solution.

That would be setting a "STANDARD" in SPORTS WORLDWIDE...

[Matt Stroika]

I might have to head over to Tully to see Bob all dressed up. Are you going to bring Cheef for your date? Where is that picture of Cheef again?

I agree with Gary. Why try to push the issue under the rug? Isn't that what got the Catholic church into the mess that they have been trying to clean up for 10 years now?

I agree with Bear too. It does seem pretty straight forward. And if you think a penis is all that physically separates a man from a woman, you should consider taking remedial biology.

Boy, I feel really old. I have Sr. in my work title. I am married with soon to be 5 kids. The oldest one is in HS and is driving now. I have been playing disc golf for 20 years. I should be playing in the Masters division right? I seem to have all the qualifications, right? If only I met the requirement and was 40. I dont see how this is any different. Maybe if I got a doctors note?

I truly have nothing against a dude in a dress. I feel bad for people with transgender issues, they have a hard life, but guess what? You still need to play by the same rules as everyone else. Play in the Intermediate division, Marielle sometimes does this and she is a woman. You don't always get your way. Lifes not fair. Too bad. Deal with it.

[Titan Bariloni]

oh sorry i forgot MUMs the word.....that should be more insulting then anything to a person...


What happened to "our" presidents pre election promise of NEFA ratings hows that going.......

Does the NEFA president chose the earl Cup Players....

If so I think something just clicked.....

[Eric Kevorkian]

What happened to "our" presidents pre election promise of NEFA ratings hows that going.......

Does the NEFA president chose the earl Cup Players....

If so I think something just clicked.....

Not sure what any of this has to do with a man playing in a womans division.

[Titan Bariloni]

What happened to "our" presidents pre election promise of NEFA ratings hows that going.......

Does the NEFA president chose the earl Cup Players....

If so I think something just clicked.....

Not sure what any of this has to do with a man playing in a womans division.

Sorry while I was typing a light bulb went off.....the president of NEFA thinks my post is offensive...and that I created a firestorm like I always do....sorry but that pisses me off......

I find him being "MUM" offensive and chicken [bleep]

[Eric Kevorkian]

Titan - you really think he's just sitting there not doing anything?

I commend him on being "mum" at the moment. We all know he can get caught up and say things he wouldn't/shouldn't normally say.

It's been 2 days since this all went down...it's not gonna change with the flick of a switch.

Not hating on you Titan...you knwo that...just saying.

[Titan Bariloni]

I am at the point I do not care what people think....What transpired over the weekend is not right.

Hush hush is not right.

Private discussion between 2 people is not right.

NEFA right now is NOT right

[Titan Bariloni]

Titan - you really think he's just sitting there not doing anything?

I commend him on being "mum" at the moment. We all know he can get caught up and say things he wouldn't/shouldn't normally say.

It's been 2 days since this all went down...it's not gonna change with the flick of a switch.

Not hating on you Titan...you knwo that...just saying.

At APO there was 5 NEFA board members in attendance this could have been voted on and discussed

I am sick of NEFA not taking action on issues.

Nothing but waiting for the PDGA is being done bottom line period. This is NEFA not PDGA

I speak the truth.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Alright, we get it.

This thread is on time out. Please do not start a new one.

[Steve Solbo]

Titan - you really think he's just sitting there not doing anything?

I commend him on being "mum" at the moment. We all know he can get caught up and say things he wouldn't/shouldn't normally say.

It's been 2 days since this all went down...it's not gonna change with the flick of a switch.

Not hating on you Titan...you knwo that...just saying.

At APO there was 5 NEFA board members in attendance this could have been voted on and discussed

I am sick of NEFA not taking action on issues.

Nothing but waiting for the PDGA is being done bottom line period. This is NEFA not PDGA

I speak the truth.

Since when is 5 a majority out of 11?

Titan, please stop. You are making a mockery out of yourself and the organization, I can't tell you how many personal Texts and PM's I have gotten regarding you and this issue. If you want to talk about this feel free to call me. (508)364-1870

[Matt Stroika]

How is this for an idea?

Woman up and says that she agrees to pay the entrance fee to play in Women's Open but will forfeit any and all prizes and points.

Windchime gets to play where she wants and it does not directly affect anyone else. Win-win?

[Raymond W. Parrish]

That would be an equitable solution to this specific instance of the issue, but would also unfortunately avoid the discomfort of codifying what NEFA (or the org) will do as a matter of policy when the issue arises again.

I know that sounds like a remote possibility, but I have learned in the last 48 hours that a similar situation is ongoing in the Pacific Northwest with area TDs uncomfortable acting without a written policy (from the org, in this case) to back them up.

[Jeni Desrosiers]

I personally find it a little funny that the people/person that has their panties in a twist over the whole situation isn't even affected by it. Psst. You know who you are (you're making it worse)

[Mike Murphy]

I personally find it a little funny that the people/person that has their panties in a twist over the whole situation isn't even affected by it. Psst. You know who you are (you're making it worse)

People who are uninvolved at all are always ones to make the biggest fuss over stuff like this.


<---- example.

[Matt Stroika]

This subject affects all NEFA members.

[Rob Tatro]

I'm just copy and pasting my response to all of this from the "grinds my gears thread" when this thread was locked (wasn't sure if some of you read it or not):

I know that a few of you think that NEFA is operating under a cloud of secrecy around this issue but Steve and I can assure you that this is not the case ... we talked at length about this last night. We are handling this matter with a great deal of thought - taking into account as many different opinions, thoughts, ramifications, and consequences as possible. To think that something is going to happen overnight or to be voted on at a tournament when all of the facts have yet to be weighed would be a knee-jerk reaction on our part and not appropriate in this instance. I know many of you are not happy with that answer and would like to see some action but there will be in due time ... really. Have you ever seen Colors? There's this joke that Bobby D. tells Shaun Penn that reminds me of this in a strange way ... anyway, just thought that I owed some of you an explanation on what the NEFA leadership is doing at this point.

We are handling this matter seriously and as soon as we have all of the information we need on our hands, we will make a fair and balanced ruling on this - taking into consideration ALL of the members that play in our organization.

[Jeni Desrosiers]

This subject affects all NEFA members.

You are correct. But the way some people react and "argue" their points really just takes away from the subject at hand. All it makes me want to do is throw up eye roll emoticons..

[Titan Bariloni]

I personally find it a little funny that the people/person that has their panties in a twist over the whole situation isn't even affected by it. Psst. You know who you are (you're making it worse)

Matt Stroika wrote:
This subject affects all NEFA members.


You are correct. But the way some people react and "argue" their points really just takes away from the subject at hand. All it makes me want to do is throw up eye roll emoticons..

I am pretty sure I added some valuable insight and information on this issue....if you do not feel that way that is your opinion and you are entitled to your opinion.

since this is like the 45th time I have heard this comment from you....and really never hear your opinion on a subject issue but just your opinion on someones opinions some would say that takes away from the "subject at hand" and tends to make me use the puke emotion

[Jeni Desrosiers]

Not everyone feels the need to spend their day posting.

Keep fighting the fight Titan. Glad you care and you do make valid points. But jeeez sometimes its a little much. And you seem to think Im opinionless on the matter so I will give you mine. (Mind you this is from someone that actually played with this person.)

I do not feel that James should be playing in the womens division. I do think it was the correct move on Sunday to be playing Pro until NEFA makes a ruling. I do think that it is inappropriate for James to be using the womens room at tournaments as this made me uncomfortable. That being said James seems like a very nice laid back person that loves disc golf and as much as this affects me and every other woman that plays disc I can't imagine being talked about like this on a public forum the way James is. I honestly feel bad and I just think we could give it a rest. Steve and the rest of NEFA knows how we feel. Do we really need to keep going? Lets see what is decided on.

And Im sorry Titan in person I like you but on this board you do make me want to eyeroll emoticon.. like you said my opinion don't take it personal its not just you guy.

[Titan Bariloni]

To all that want to know I work online sometimes 15 hours a day.....its real easy for me to have the NEFA page open well most of that time...my cpu is hooked up to a large screen Tv so its really easy to have several pages open from various sites around the web....

I find this board just a way for an organization that is in different states to talk,discuss,create,learn, and to get things done quicker...I don;t really like talking about issues when I am actually playing DG or at a tourney when I am then trying to get into that "athlete mentality" for the day...so this board is a major tool for our sport to grow....and for members to communicate without having to cloud an event with issues except what I took on hole 4 etc etc......

I did not think you were opinionless is that a word sounds good to me....I just thought it was odd to not give an opinion on the topic but then give an opinion on someones opinion on a topic.

I hear ya sometimes I go over the top......and drill a point and then drill it some more...but understand I really see nothing getting done ever....when it comes to valid concern in general with the future of NEFA..we can't keep "growing the sport" and then just keep running on the same old outdated day to day operations...its time we grow as well to catch up with the recent times in DG and the world

Also I don't like to "post then run" for lack of a better phrase....I don't mind defending my stance,learning something new and changing my stance if need be.....I just like closure in discussion not this hey I have a great idea what do you think....get everyone in an uproar then it fades away to the depths of the forums and never sees the light of day....I like hey here is an idea...what do ya think....got any ideas/solution/improvements.....working out details....then seeing the "idea" be brought to life.

And yes sometimes they have "shock" value its there for a reason to create buzz....you get more from a human and a real reaction when they are challenged

Hope that helps anyone confused by my frequent post or style of post

[Derek Sonderfan]

Perhaps it's the theatre school in me, but I can't help but see this from Windchime's perspective. Before surgery, it is mandated (I believe) to live the life as the other gender for a period of time (2 years?) before surgery is allowed. She HAS TO (and obviously wants to) live as a woman. So why would she play in the men's division or use men's rooms? That's taking a step backwards in a lifestyle choice.

People seem to put out there that they are upset because of the margin of victory. Okay, so it's just a sandbagging issues, like any Am2 who wins by 10 but would have just cashed in advance. If that's genuinely why people are upset, fine - they have every right - it's sandbagging. But would we have had this conversation if Windchime had played in Open Women's and came in DFL by 5 strokes?

I'm kinda glad this is happening as a precedent-setter. As time goes on, there will likely be more transgendered folks getting involved in the sport, and having a rule about it is good. And the conversation on this site, I feel, has been very fruitful and worth reading.

[Kiara Sears]

As the discussions have unfolded on various forums, I have patiently held my tongue after I made apologies and commendments. I must state a few things now before another extended period of silence.

1. I respect everyones right to speech and their opinion.
2. I am glad that people are voicing their opinion on the issue.
3. I think that the discussion should remain open.
4. I believe the "time out" was beneficial.
5. I have not attempted to undermine the rules.
6. I did not attempt to "sandbag" by (in accordance with the rules as stated) registering into a division that my official player rating deemed apropriate.
7. After the EMC I was contacted by tournament officals. I recognized the due courtesy of changing my registered division, and did so without hesitation.
8. A person's genitalia are no one else's business.
9. Everyone has a right to a safe, cleanly restroom facility. A person using a restroom is no one else's business.
10. I am explicitly offended by some of the things people are posting.
11. I appreciate the words of support and/or understanding that have been posted and sent to me privately.
12. I am eagerly waiting to hear back from the PDGA after their upcoming summit.
13. I feel that NEFA has responded and is responding appropriately to the situation.
14. titan and veganray (Titan excluded from most following adjectives), although you have denied it at times... You have been rude, insensitive, disrespectful, misrepresenting, hateful, incoherent, incompetent, un-tactful, discourteous, offensive, arrogant, ignorant, and just plain mean to me specifically and many other innocent people. It is Un-called for and shameful. Shame on you, veganray. Shame. I do not appreciate being misrepresented at times by Stroika, Gary, Titan, and others. Whether either of you care to talk to me or not, apologize or not, I do not want to hear it. Do not contact me.
15. I mistakingly did not report to the TD at APO on the morning of the tournament about a violation of the Overt Rudeness rule. I was approached by a white male, approximately 6' in height, approximately 190 lbs., with short light brown hair and beard. He did not have the decency to introduce himself formally. He made a rude remark about me, and walked away. I will not make the mistake of not reporting any violation in the future. Violation could lead to disqualification of a player.
16. In light of the circumstance becoming an issue of national debate, I must think of my professional career and future outside of the disc golf world. I need to protect my right to privacy. I demand that my legal name, and any nickname or variation therof (other than Windchime or a non-specific description) not be used. I will request to the moderator that my name be removed or replaced with Windchime on this and several other forums.
17. I plan to change my registration in the other PDGA sanctioned events I have paid for. I am waiting to see what the PDGA decides, and what divisional eligibility will entail.
18. I am still sorry to have hurt anyones feelings or to have made anyone uncomfortable in any way.
19. I am gender female. There is nothing I or anyone can do to change that.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

In light of the circumstance becoming an issue of national debate, I must think of my professional career and future outside of the disc golf world. I need to protect my right to privacy. I demand that my legal name, and any nickname or variation therof (other than Windchime or a non-specific description) not be used. I will request to the moderator that my name be removed or replaced with Windchime on this and several other forums.

As I am the current moderator here, please PM me with any name-changes you would like to be made.

I applaude your courage in publicizing your feelings here. Feel free to PM me with ANY future posts that you feel have "crossed the line".

[Titan Bariloni]

I encourage and welcome "Windchime" to keep competing...NEFA is very colorful and host many wonderful personalities.


Did "Windchime" contact any NEFA Board memebrs....state reps,vp,or president on this.....

"windchime" played last year in Am2? not sure....

"windchime" what division do you plan on playing in PDGA Events?

"windchime" put herself out there when she publicly posted on the "internet" to some detail of her situation......so we can avoid a "pool" situation and then go the route of "censorship" that the PDGA uses so much.....

Most have been respectful of her situation IMO and I believe "windchime" should understand the current debate. We argue rules all day everyday with specific names attached to the discussion in rules standards this is "HUGE"....so its only expected to be discussed.

Maybe "windchime" could volunteer to work with Solbo and the Board to create a fair division for participants in her similar situation to enjoy forever instead of this "band aid" solution.....I am sure she may know similar people with this issue maybe it would encourage them to play disc golf knowing NEFA is at least trying to be "inclusive to all.
If transgender/sexual people are truly interested in being recognized then I would think this would be the best solution.

I will do the MOD a favor these our "my post" that had "windchimes" name in them on this thread....I will go back and adjust all..that is fine can "windchime" change his NEFA ID to "windchime"....That is my request to the MOD

I see not foul language, personal attacks,talk of innappropriate nature towards Windchime in any post throughout this thread....

I feel personally attacked to tell you the truth.......

I was welcoming to Windchime any ohter issues discussed were just about the issue in general pertaining to Sports,Life.

I feel offended

[Jason Rubito]

As the discussions have unfolded on various forums, I have patiently held my tongue after I made apologies and commendments. I must state a few things now before another extended period of silence.

1. I respect everyones right to speech and their opinion.
2. I am glad that people are voicing their opinion on the issue.
3. I think that the discussion should remain open.
4. I believe the "time out" was beneficial.
5. I have not attempted to undermine the rules.
6. I did not attempt to "sandbag" by (in accordance with the rules as stated) registering into a division that my official player rating deemed apropriate.
7. After the EMC I was contacted by tournament officals. I recognized the due courtesy of changing my registered division, and did so without hesitation.
8. A person's genitalia are no one else's business.
9. Everyone has a right to a safe, cleanly restroom facility. A person using a restroom is no one else's business.
10. I am explicitly offended by some of the things people are posting.
11. I appreciate the words of support and/or understanding that have been posted and sent to me privately.
12. I am eagerly waiting to hear back from the PDGA after their upcoming summit.
13. Excluding the supposed NEFA board member 'titan', I feel that NEFA has responded and is responding appropriately to the situation.
14. titan and veganray, although you have denied it at times... You have been rude, insensitive, disrespectful, misrepresenting, hateful, incoherent, incompetent, un-tactful, discourteous, offensive, arrogant, ignorant, and just plain mean to me specifically and many other innocent people. It is Un-called for and shameful. Shame on you, titan and veganray. Shame. Whether you care to talk to me or not, apologize or not, I do not want to hear it. Do not contact me.
15. I mistakingly did not report to the TD at APO on the morning of the tournament about a violation of the Overt Rudeness rule. I was approached by a white male, approximately 6' in height, approximately 190 lbs., with short light brown hair and beard. He did not have the decency to introduce himself formally. He made a rude remark about me, and walked away. I will not make the mistake of not reporting any violation in the future. Violation could lead to disqualification of a player.
16. In light of the circumstance becoming an issue of national debate, I must think of my professional career and future outside of the disc golf world. I need to protect my right to privacy. I demand that my legal name, and any nickname or variation therof (other than Windchime or a non-specific description) not be used. I will request to the moderator that my name be removed or replaced with Windchime on this and several other forums.
17. I plan to change my registration in the other PDGA sanctioned events I have paid for. I am waiting to see what the PDGA decides, and what divisional eligibility will entail.
18. I am still sorry to have hurt anyones feelings or to have made anyone uncomfortable in any way.
19. I am gender female. There is nothing I or anyone can do to change that.

Bout time you responded and shut some of these people up.

[Dave Mourad]

Perhaps it's the theatre school in me, but I can't help but see this from James' perspective. Before surgery, it is mandated (I believe) to live the life as the other gender for a period of time (2 years?) before surgery is allowed. She HAS TO (and obviously wants to) live as a woman. So why would she play in the men's division or use men's rooms? That's taking a step backwards in a lifestyle choice.

People seem to put out there that they are upset because of the margin of victory. Okay, so it's just a sandbagging issues, like any Am2 who wins by 10 but would have just cashed in advance. If that's genuinely why people are upset, fine - they have every right - it's sandbagging. But would we have had this conversation if James had played in Open Women's and came in DFL by 5 strokes?

I'm kinda glad this is happening as a precedent-setter. As time goes on, there will likely be more transgendered folks getting involved in the sport, and having a rule about it is good. And the conversation on this site, I feel, has been very fruitful and worth reading.

word

[Titan Bariloni]

there every post I have made has now been changed to windchime.....I am so offensive I just took the time to look back and change every instance of the old user name to the new user name "windchime"

I read all my post none seemed offensive to me....