2011 NEFA Finals general discussion

[Dave Jackson]

I am willing to help the cause to make the Finals what they could potentially be.
Craig, Rob, DanO, Matt D and Stroika are all on to something. Super ideas.
I want to help and match play is the only way to fly

I picked Nate Doss to win the Match Play Championship this weekend in Texas. It's gonna be awesome. The tournament was born, I believe, to find the BEST player in disc golf, the way golf-type sports were intended to be contested. Heads up.
One-on-one.

Let's bring back the match play finals

[Matt Stroika]

For the record, I do like the season payouts. If someone plays their butt off all year to do well in the standings, they shouldn't be left out in the cold if they can't make one weekend work for health, work, family emergencies, etc.

Not really left in the cold. If they worked hard and played well I imagine that they won cash and or prizes along the way.

Does Climo win money at Worlds when he doesn't play? I think not. Maybe trophy for the top in each division, top 3? Beyond that it really makes no sense. If it were match play your added reward is you play the 16th or 8th seed the first round if you win your division.

[Chris Young]

I see no reason why NEFA couldnt have a Series payout and a big,fat NEFA Finals celebration! I like a Series payout and I like growing Finals into something bigger and better every year. I say keep both and continue to improve upon both.

[John Borelli]

We gave each NEFA member a dollar refund at check-in at the King of the Hill as a small membership benefit. Yeah, $1 isn't much but if enough TDs did that you'd probably get half your membership fee back each year. Don't think many people understood what we were trying to do, but it was the thought that counts.

I liked end of year payouts in my early AM2 years but as I moved up and got better I was more concerned about finishing as high as possible in the standings. It was all about bragging rights and finally seeing my name in the top 5 list on the points home page. When that happened for the first time that was way cool.

Match play is a lot of fun but since no NEFA points events use match play it shouldn't be used at Finals. But that's been discussed every year around this time for the past 5 years! If I still lived up there maybe I'd hold a match play event. Hmm... Better put that on the to do list.

[Al Rosa]

I see no reason why NEFA couldnt have a Series payout and a big,fat NEFA Finals celebration! I like a Series payout and I like growing Finals into something bigger and better every year. I say keep both and continue to improve upon both.

Gee. Why do we call you Young Bucks again?

[Brad Harris]

Does Climo win money at Worlds when he doesn't play? I think not.

He does make money from the National Tour, even if he doesn't show for the finale...

[Karl Molitoris]

Matt Stroika wrote:
Does Climo win money at Worlds when he doesn't play? I think not.

Come on Matt, I would have expected a better analogy from you (not your best )!
1. His (Climo's) case is a lot of tournaments NOT meaning - virtually - anything toward whether or not he's allowed to play in World's (what TD is going to say "No Ken, you're not playing this year...")
2. Our (NEFA's) case is a lot of tournaments SPECIFICALLY meaning whether or not someone is allowed to play in the finals.

It's more akin (but not really...at least the way we do it now) to playoffs in major team sports. And there IS revenue sharing in ALL teams - even those that don't get there - of profits from the SuperBowl, World Series, etc.

In the end, there will be at least 2 camps: Those that think the Finals is the cat's meow and those that think it's just "another tournament".

Karl

[Craig Cutler]

Whether it's match play or stroke play the event could be so much better. One of these years NEFA should take a risk and think big. Steve Dodge did....

Why are people so concerned with getting membership fees back, (a $1 refund, really?) or geting an $ 18 check at the end of the year for 9th place in their division.

Hopefully the membership will give us 1 year to prove how amazing the Finals can be. If it fails, then we can go back to the way it is.

[Gary Cyr]

Why are people so concerned with getting membership fees back, (a $1 refund, really?) or geting an $ 18 check at the end of the year for 9th place in their division.

Couldn't agree more Craig. $25 a year to know that your money goes back to help discgolf all over NEFA. It's less than the fee to play in one tournament. Additionally many people join under the annual 2 for 1 membership deal and get in for $12.50 for the year.

[Karl Molitoris]

How would you define "big" or "amazing"?

[Titan Bariloni]

How would you define "big" or "amazing"?

2ez

[Craig Cutler]

To me it means:

Course: Large enough facility to handle 90 players or more, Uniform Baskets, Cement/FlyPad/or Stone dust tees. If natural now, Nefa funds stone dust to local club a month before event. Coolers of drinks on various holes throughout the course.

Food: Catered and paid for by NEFA both days of the event.

Players Party: Rent out a Restaurant, All food and soft drinks free. Cash bar.

Lodging: Depends on host course but discounted hotel rooms or free camping.

Players packs like the USDGC ($ 100+ value), added cash or prizes to all divisions, larger than just another regular NEFA event.

It's all been done before just not by NEFA...yet?

[Shaun LaForce]

To me it means:

Course: Large enough facility to handle 90 players or more, Uniform Baskets, Cement/FlyPad/or Stone dust tees. If natural now, Nefa funds stone dust to local club a month before event. Coolers of drinks on various holes throughout the course.

Food: Catered and paid for by NEFA both days of the event.

Players Party: Rent out a Restaurant, All food and soft drinks free. Cash bar.

Lodging: Depends on host course but discounted hotel rooms or free camping.

Players packs like the USDGC ($ 100+ value), added cash or prizes to all divisions, larger than just another regular NEFA event.

It's all been done before just not by NEFA...yet?

That would be sick.

[Scooter Feely]

That would be expensive as well. The Vibram Open did not give out that much.

[Craig Cutler]

The lunches/drinks and buffett could get done for about $ 1600. The players packs dont need to be that much (anything is better than a $5 nefa sweatshirt like the past)... We just pulled off an event that had much of what I mentioned above and we only had $ 3000 in added cash to work with.

[Scooter Feely]

Now that is a reasonable number to work with!

[Karl Molitoris]

To me it means:

Course: Large enough facility to handle 90 players or more, Uniform Baskets, Cement/FlyPad/or Stone dust tees. If natural now, Nefa funds stone dust to local club a month before event. Coolers of drinks on various holes throughout the course.

Food: Catered and paid for by NEFA both days of the event.

Players Party: Rent out a Restaurant, All food and soft drinks free. Cash bar.

Lodging: Depends on host course but discounted hotel rooms or free camping.

Players packs like the USDGC ($ 100+ value), added cash or prizes to all divisions, larger than just another regular NEFA event.

It's all been done before just not by NEFA...yet?

I'm not saying that this couldn't be done by NEFA, but let's look at some estimated numbers. And what I mean by estimated numbers is not what COULD be done (as pigs can fly every 4th millenium or so but ask a pig on the spot to fly and odd-on they won't...) but what are "averages":

"Large enough" facility narrows it down to a dozen or so courses; with facilities to 'house food, et al' narrows it down further. Yield: Doable but limited.

"Stone dust..." is great for that course but cost / man-hours has to be figured out. Yield: 1 "stone dust / hours cost"

"Coolers of drinks..." = several hundred dollars (remember cost of coolers and 90 players who drink a lot of liquid). Yield: several hundreds.

"Food catered..." = 15 years ago I had a catered running race that ended up ~$11per. 100 people would yield probably a cost of 1100. And that was 15 years ago (costs have prob increased). And how many meals are you going to provide? Yeild = 1K per meal min (could be more).

$100+ pack for 90 players. Even if bought at 1/2 price = 4.5K. Oh, only AMs? 1/2 the field? Still $2,250 min.

Rent a restaurant. Will need to be big enough for 100+ people (90, plus TD, plus "helpers", plus slummers, etc.). Oh, only players come inside? Yeh right. For a restaurant (that big) to reserve a 4 hour block during prime time on a Fri or Sat night will cost. Lots. Provide all-you-can-eat and soft-drink? For 100+? Even if they'll make money on the cash bar? I say 3K min (could be a lot more).

Camping costs: insurance for such, etc. (I don't even know what would be entailed but I'm sure they'd be SOME costs).

And now the "added cash" aspect. Something for nothing is what this sport seems to be all about (OK, rant off), but it'll take time away from all the other logistics (of pulling this off as "a happening" - which would be cool) to raise "money". Of course you want it all...we all do...but in practice it hardly ever happens.


Now I KNOW people will say "...I can get x for less...". Good! YOU volunteer to do such (and we'll reimburse you). And if you don't come through, we'll eviscerate you (or some such). Oh, not so confident you can come through? THAT'S what costs so much...being able to guarantee! Dreams are cheap; reality costs a little more.

Proving my numbers wrong would be wonderful (if they're to the "less side"), but at least everyone now has an idea that this is NOT a small undertaking. It will take TIME, PEOPLE, ORGANIZATION, MORE TIME, $$$, etc. Who's up for this work?

Karl
Ps: Not a curmudgeon, just a realist. But a happy one .
Pps: Seeing your $1600 tells me we're not talking about the same "happening"....

[Craig Cutler]

What I posted is a "goal". It takes years to build up to the final product. We could start small and build momentum with players/supporters/volunteers,etc. It's all possible. Maybe the first year it's not a restuarant, but a rented BBQ cart and kegs and cans of sodas, etc.

[Titan Bariloni]

anybody a pig farmer? we could get a lil baby pig and raise it to be the nefa finals meal!

[Karl Molitoris]

I like the concept of start small(er) and build up "infrastructure" to eventually become a wizz-bang thing. As long as people realize that good things rarely happen overnight - and surely don't happen without effort.

Karl
Ps: def: infrastructure. noun. structuring infras. example: b-b-q pit, coolers, portable tents, spits, etc.

[Karl Molitoris]

Remember, the best way to catch a pig is to run to the left. They always hyzer out that way!

[John DeBois]

What I posted is a "goal". It takes years to build up to the final product. We could start small and build momentum with players/supporters/volunteers,etc. It's all possible. Maybe the first year it's not a restuarant, but a rented BBQ cart and kegs and cans of sodas, etc.

amen to this

[Jeff Wiechowski]

I just happen to be sitting at such an establishment..... In close proximity to Central Park(with an additional course nearby, to be installed next year).

90-100 people
Limited menu included in the price. Burgers, wings & salads.
Cash bar
7-11pm?

I'll ask.

[Seth McQuade]

Jeff you are the man. Your commitment to NEFA and disc golf is tremendous. Thanks for putting in so much effort, I appreciate it!

[Dave Jackson]

I like Cutler's idea's lots.
Guess who else are Master Party Hosts?
JD, Mike Andrews and Stew.
Putting some heads together will result in something different for next year.
Match play is the only way to go.
You could even get a gallery watching the final MPO group if it were match play.

The US Amateur Golf Championship is determined by match play format. They play Medal (stroke) Play all year though.
It does not matter if the finals format mirrors the format used for the regular season. The effort would be to make the finals distinguishable and special, hence the match play format.
Yes?

[Rob Tatro]

Yes Dave. Let's do it, let's put together a committee, get our s**t together and present something that is well thought out to the board during the off season. We could make this work.

[John Tserpes]

Love the match play idea. If NEFA raises their $1 per player to $2 for each event, they could support another event mid-way through the season for it's members which I think it's lacking in the current system. So basically you could have this NEFA Match Play Championship mid season for it's members at Maple Hill and finish the series as stroke play finals. Best of both worlds.

[Doug Callaghan]

You lose your first match, then what? Who wants to stick around for 2 days? Not me. Stroke is better, its easier and you get to play against everyone that you have played all year. Winning Match-play isnt winning against everyone in your division. Im sure when Nefa changed it to stroke play some of these same things came up.

[Craig Cutler]

The "lose and leave" mentality can be eliminated if they event is done correctly. If everyone gets prizes, why would you forfeit your prize and leave? Why would you miss the players party?

Why do people who miss the cut at Vibram stay Saturday night and Sunday?

[Karl Molitoris]

Why do people who miss the cut at Vibram stay Saturday night and Sunday?

While I'm not saying that there aren't some similarities (to the two scenarios), I think they are mutually exclusive enough to consider the potential differences...

Vibram Open: You miss the cut. You don't "split" because a) you planned on playing Sunday, just weren't good enough, b) traveled a LONG way to play and there's nothing else to do (you can't get home for the local league, etc.), c) you pooled with buddies and they ARE playing, and d) you have a chance to see some of the world's dg'er best.

NEFA Finals: You miss the cut. You split because a) you didn't do as well as you'd have liked, b) you CAN get home for the local league, c) you didn't pool, and d) you are NOT going to see a Climo or a Feldberg that Sunday.

For a lot of people - especially AMs - it's "not about the prizes", it's about the atmosphere (of a tournament setting), the competition (and potentially 1 small round isn't "enough" bang for the day / 2-days), etc.
IFFFFF there was a way to ensure all people played a LOT of dg (medal or match), THAT would be the best of all worlds.

Karl