To STROKE or NOT to stroke

[Danny White]

During a recent event I attended, a fellow competitor got his disc stuck about 6 meters up a tree.
"No two meter rule" was announced at the players' meeting. So, he placed his marker on the ground directly under his disc, then took a disc out of his bag a threw it at the disc that was stuck in the tree.

My comment to him was, "You can't do that, use something other than a disc."
BTW, No one seconded the observed throw either.

"To STROKE or NOT to stroke", that is the question?

Just wondering what other readers of this thread would have done?

[Todd Lapham]

That's a tough one.

-It could be a practice throw penalty.
-He could play it where it landed, just like a normal throw.
-Most likely could be a foot fault as it's unlikely he was lined up properly when throwing up a tree.

If it was me, I probably would have called a foot fault (if it was one) on him, then informed him not to throw his disc at the stuck disc. He could second it, then throw again without a penalty.

If it wasn't a foot fault, practice stroke penalty I guess, if he didn't want to play from where it landed.

[Josh Connell]

During a recent event I attended, a fellow competitor got his disc stuck about 6 meters up a tree.
"No two meter rule" was announced at the players' meeting. So, he placed his marker on the ground directly under his disc, then took a disc out of his bag a threw it at the disc that was stuck in the tree.

My comment to him was, "You can't do that, use something other than a disc."
BTW, No one seconded the observed throw either.

"To STROKE or NOT to stroke", that is the question?

Just wondering what other readers of this thread would have done?

Practice throw penalty for each toss, especially after you warned him that he couldn't do it. Worth noting that the rule regarding practice throws and penalties does not require a second in order to be assessed. It only says the violation must be "observed" by two players or an official. (803.01 B.)

So I think you could conclude that if the other people in the group saw him throw the disc, they "observed" it and you could assess the penalties without a "second" from them. Worst that comes of it is you go to the TD at the end of the round, explain what happened, and let him decide whether the penalties stand or not. They'd be flat out lying if the TD asked if they saw the throw and denied it, after all.

That said, I think I might have let the first toss slide with just the informal warning, especially if the player didn't know any better. But any actions after warning him would definitely be penalized. But if he did know better before he did it, no mercy. Sorry, there's no excuse for doing something like that if you know is not allowed by the rules.

[Matt Stroika]

Unless you are standing far from the tree and using a distinct disc golf throwing motion to retrieve your disc, I do not see why anyone would consider stroking someone for a 'practice shot' when they were clearly trying to retrieve thier disc. When is the last time you an overhand or underhand at 90 degrees being an effective disc golf shot. It is not 'practicing' for anything, it is retrieval of property.

[Charles Edman]

Unless you are standing far from the tree and using a distinct disc golf throwing motion to retrieve your disc, I do not see why anyone would consider stroking someone for a 'practice shot' when they were clearly trying to retrieve thier disc. When is the last time you an overhand or underhand at 90 degrees being an effective disc golf shot. It is not 'practicing' for anything, it is retrieval of property.

2nd this. You mentioned specifically mentioned that he marked the lie directly under the disc since there was no 2 meter rule. The player wasn't throwing practicing shot. He wasn't making a throw to then say "Oops, I didn't really mean to do that," in order to advance his position. He was using the time honored tradition of "Huck an object into a tree to dislodge a previous object." I don't really see how this is an issue.

[Josh Connell]

Doesn't really matter what the player's intent was, or whether it was of any benefit to the player or not. Any throw of a disc that does not change the player's lie is, by rule, a practice throw.

800. Definitions
Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player's lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie.

The rule doesn't differentiate "distinct disc golf throwing motion" and "non-distinct disc golf throwing motion" and it doesn't differentiate "practice" from "retrieving property", it simply says a "projection of a disc" and it says that it isn't allowed and carries a penalty.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Good conversation here.
Casual vs Competitive round might sway my decision as to how strict I would've responded.

Since Danny said "fellow competitor" I assume it's another MPG player, which SHOULD know better than to use a disc in this fashion during an "event"(tournament?).

[Kenji Cline]

I was talking to Danny about this, didn't ask who the player was, but Danny said he nicely said your not supposed to throw discs to retrive the tree disc it can be considered a practice throw and the player responded "stroke me" like a dik. Why are players like this? The player threw the disc in the tree not Danny. Danny is one of the nicest guys. Makes you want to call the penalty on them just for being "that guy". #1 rule in disc golf have fun! Don't be "that guy".

[Matt Stroika]

I know the rule. I just wouldn't be 'that guy' that plays a NEFA event like its the USDGC calling questionable infractions on my competition. Have fun. Dont be a dick.

In general rocks or sticks work better than throwing discs into a tree that is known to catch discs. Why do you want 2 of your discs stuck up in the tree?

[Jaxon Sheehy]

this seemed like nice comprimise:

http://youtu.be/XyJL1Pf5DQ0

[Josh Connell]

I just wouldn't be 'that guy' that plays a NEFA event like its the USDGC calling questionable infractions on my competition. Have fun. Dont be a dick.

funk that. The guy who knows the rules and calls them when necessary is not a dick. No one is advocating being a jerk and running up one side of the guy and down the other for daring to throw his disc up in the tree (though with the attitude this guy had, according to Kenji, maybe that would be justified). Polite education first, warnings and penalties later.

If the guy is doing something that is not allowed by rule, there's absolutely nothing wrong with telling him that. Not warning him, not stroking him, just giving a friendly reminder. But if he's going to persist even after being advised, and intentionally continue to break the rule, I don't care if it's a local league night or the USDGC, a call and if necessary, a penalty, is justified.

As far as this thread and threads like it go, I'm a huge advocate of making sure that the rules discussed are accurate for education purposes. Adding in qualifications like "distinct throwing motion" and "retrieval of property" that have nothing to do with the rule itself is just unnecessary noise that leads to more confusion than clarity about the rules.

We want to differentiate the level of play and "seriousness" between playing a NEFA event and the USDGC, but what happens when players at the USDGC get rulings wrong or commit infractions because they didn't know or understand a rule properly? "I read on NEFA.com that I can do this if..." or "we always did it this way at NEFA events" is not going to be a proper defense and certainly won't get you out of a penalty. So why not strive to educate properly from the start?

[Mike Laterreur]

I agree with Josh. How many discussions do we have anout wanting to grow the sport, or are proud of the growth in New England. Why not teach our players right?

And honestly, if the response really was "stroke me then" I think you should've penalized him for every toss. It's not like your intention initially was to penalize, but to educate.

[Matt Stroika]

Maybe dick was too strong of a word.

Bottom line is that I wouldnt be either guy.

I wouldn't stroke someone for doing something that I do not view as cheating. I would maybe ask if they needed help retrieving their disc.

If someone warned me for breaking a rule (Agreed that it is against the rules and therefore must respect that opinion), I would cease the action.

[Tom Southwick]

Everyone in the group should be throwing their unwanted discs into the tree to help the guy out rather than calling silly penalties. Live your life to a higher standard than a Frisbee rule book.

[Mike Murphy]

You have to enforce rules, even if it is a little silly.

If we keep letting "minor" penalties slip then no one will learn and the sport will not grow at the competitive level. Serious players will not want to play in tournaments where rules are looked at with a grain of salt.

I hear so many people talk about not calling foot faults or falling putts because its "not serious", unless you're the guy who just lost out on cash by one stroke because someone saw an infration and decided not to call it.

[Matt Stroika]

unless you're the guy who just lost out on cash by one stroke because someone saw an infration and decided not to call it.

I will just stick to my day job for making cash and I would suggest that to anyone else as well. Even the top touring players that are rated 1040 are barely making a living at playing disc golf.

Nice post Tom S. Have fun. Chuck plastic.

[Mike Murphy]

unless you're the guy who just lost out on cash by one stroke because someone saw an infration and decided not to call it.

I will just stick to my day job for making cash and I would suggest that to anyone else as well. Even the top touring players that are rated 1040 are barely making a living at playing disc golf.

Nice post Tom S. Have fun. Chuck plastic.

Regardless of the amount, I would be pissed if my standings were different because someone didn't make a proper call or any call for that matter.

If you're playing a tournament, make the call. A single stroke can matter a lot when it comes to ratings as well.

How can someone expect to improve their game if no one calls them out on their infractions? They'll just keep foot faulting or breaking whatever rule they breaking.

[Titan Bariloni]

always said this was most common "stroking penalty" I observe the most..
tough to call...under the "tom post theory"

you really shouldn't spend much time doing this mid round as it would be speed of play issue..just retrieve after round

any object should not be thrown in the round..regardless if it is a "disc" or not over 2 meters IMO if your gonna reaLLY play by the exact rules..so rocks,sticks ect ect would also be considered practice throws IMO..or is that actually the rule?

I have done it in casual events leagues,unsanctioned tourney ect ect but don't think in an actual Pdga sanctioned event I ever have

prob seen this happen well over 100 times...with on average 5-10 throws to get disc or give up on disc...that is lots of strokes...

think it is time for an official casual golfer set of rules..lol for unsanctioned/lower tiered events to maintain some order but not take the FUN away from players

[Josh Connell]

any object should not be thrown in the round..regardless if it is a "disc" or not over 2 meters IMO if your gonna reaLLY play by the exact rules..so rocks,sticks ect ect would also be considered practice throws IMO..or is that actually the rule?

Rule defines practice throw as a "projection of a disc". It does not specifically disallow throwing of balls, rocks, sticks, water bottles, etc. Though, from a safety perspective, not to mention a courtesy perspective, tossing all manner of objects into a tree during a tournament probably isn't the best idea in the world to begin with. You never know who's on the other side or underneath the tree when you throw, or who might be under it later on when the stick you tossed and got stuck next to your disc gets dislodged by wind or whatever and falls.

you really shouldn't spend much time doing this mid round as it would be speed of play issue..just retrieve after round

Exactly. I've played (and run) plenty of tournaments where players were specifically told not to take extra time to retrieve suspended discs or discs in water, so as to not disrupt the flow of the tournament. Couple quick tosses to try to retrieve the disc seem okay to me, but if you're unsuccessful, you should move on as you don't want to linger and cause a back-up.

[eric kaplan]

I think this is a good plug for the two meter rule. Your disc is in a tree, over your head... Nice shot!

[Mike Murphy]

So I saw someone go wading out into the lake on Saturday at West T for a disc DURING a round. I thought there was a strict rule about not doing that during a round, is that not the case? It didn't slow down play too much but it easily could have.

Is that a call "time" and give them their 3 minutes to get it or should the group just be informed that they CANNOT do that and have to wait until after the round? And if they ignore the warning would the individual get penalized or the group as a whole for allowing it?

Like I said, didn't really slow down play but is that a straight up No-No?

[Josh Connell]

So I saw someone go wading out into the lake on Saturday at West T for a disc DURING a round. I thought there was a strict rule about not doing that during a round, is that not the case? It didn't slow down play too much but it easily could have.

Is that a call "time" and give them their 3 minutes to get it or should the group just be informed that they CANNOT do that and have to wait until after the round? And if they ignore the warning would the individual get penalized or the group as a whole for allowing it?

Like I said, didn't really slow down play but is that a straight up No-No?

Not a straight up no-no unless the TD specifies that players are not allowed go retrieving discs from the water. I remember running tournaments at Barre Falls years ago where I had to explicitly specify that there was to be no retrieving discs out of the spillway on old 14 and 15 during the round. Players were not allowed to hop the chainlink fence (ACOE rule so violation could result in DQ), so they'd have had to walk all the way around to retrieve the disc, which would clearly take more time than would be acceptable. I said my say-so at the player meeting constituted an official warning, so if they went into the spillway and delayed their group at all, they were subject to an excessive time penalty (801.03B) which would involve a stroke per violation.

And that's about the only rule that such a scenario would fall under if the director didn't specify anything. A player has 30 seconds to make their next throw after the away player has thrown and they've taken a "reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie". If they're dawdling trying to retrieve a disc out of the water, you could say they're taking more than a reasonable amount of time to arrive at their disc.

Also, in the Competition Manual, there is a section on pace of play (Section 3.2) that says...

A. All competitors shall play without undue delay and will make every effort to keep up with the group in front of them. Players are required to quickly move from the completion of one hole to the tee area of the next hole. Also, while advancing down the fairway, the player shall not unduly delay play by his or her actions.

B. A player causing undue delays may be issued an excessive time violation by tournament officials. Please see PDGA Rules of Play 801.03B Excessive Time regarding specific penalties.

Note that the rules specifies keeping up with the group in front rather than delaying the group following. So there is an argument for calling violations even if there is no real delay caused directly by the action (the group behind isn't stuck waiting on the tee, for example). So maybe you don't cause a back-up immediately on that particular hole, but the gap it creates in front of the group could have a ripple effect and cause a back-up/delay later on in the round.

[Mike Murphy]

Fair enough.

[Steven Dakai]

Mike, definitely not allowed and stated in the player meeting. Swimming and wading at West T is illegal and its posted all over the place. That player should have been DQ'd on the spot.

[Mike Murphy]

Mike, definitely not allowed and stated in the player meeting. Swimming and wading at West T is illegal and its posted all over the place. That player should have been DQ'd on the spot.

Ok, our group was not sure, but its definitely good to know. I have no idea who the player was, but its too late now anyways.

[Matt Grayum]

Mike, definitely not allowed and stated in the player meeting. Swimming and wading at West T is illegal and its posted all over the place. That player should have been DQ'd on the spot.

Ok, our group was not sure, but its definitely good to know. I have no idea who the player was, but its too late now anyways.

It was the last card Am2 I believe...they prob didn't know any better.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

It was the last card Am2 I believe...they prob didn't know any better.

Or can't read. I've only been there once and I remember seeing the no swimming signs.

[Matt Grayum]

It was the last card Am2 I believe...they prob didn't know any better.

Or can't read. I've only been there once and I remember seeing the no swimming signs.

Could be both.

[Bobby Direnzo]

I was talking to Danny about this, didn't ask who the player was, but Danny said he nicely said your not supposed to throw discs to retrive the tree disc it can be considered a practice throw and the player responded "stroke me" like a dik. Why are players like this? The player threw the disc in the tree not Danny. Danny is one of the nicest guys. Makes you want to call the penalty on them just for being "that guy". #1 rule in disc golf have fun! Don't be "that guy".

I like this guy already!! NO H-MO