Sudden death tie breakers

[Jeff Wiechowski]

First time i've come across this........ thanks to Craig Cutler for pointing it out to me.

1.9 Tie Breakers

B. Final ties for first place in any division or for the reduction of field size must be broken by sudden death play. Sudden death play shall begin with hole number one unless a different hole or series of holes is designated by the Tournament Director prior to the start of the tournament.

Because of tourney central(@Central Park) NOT being close to hole #1, I sent the AM1 playoff over to hole #6 only out of convienence. I made the MPO groups come all the way back to TC to verify their scores and probably should've just let them playoff before they traveled back.

Just when you think you're getting the hang of this TD thing, a curveball gets sent your way to test ya.

[Kenji Cline]

We have to add to the players meeting notes to announce playoffs start at hole 6 when we use the stadium tennis courts as tourney central. Holes 6-8 make good spectating holes when we can stand in the tennis court bleachers and watch the action.

[Matt Aubin]

Unfortunately, I think walking all the way back to TC had to be done; scores must be made official (no errors) before a playoff can begin, no?

But yeah, if TC is no where near course-labeled no.1, you should announce pre-tourney that playoffs start at hole X after cards come in. Especially on ski hill courses lol!

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Unfortunately, I think walking all the way back to TC had to be done; scores must be made official (no errors) before a playoff can begin, no?

This is the thought process I was using and if (BIG IF) there had been a scoring error on the card and they played (3) playoff holes BEFORE turning in the card, I'd have opened up a HUGE can of worms about extra throws before turning a card in.

I hope the two players involved understand why I decided to do it the way I did. Glad that they had a car out at Hole #1 so that they didn't have to hoof it out and back.

[Danny White]

That actually brings up another question?
If the players had finished their round, how can they be penalized for extra throws?
I understand the round to be completed when the player has holed out on their final hole. Not when the scorecard has been turned in.

804.03F "Players have up to 25 minutes to turn in their scorecards, after the completion of a round."

This came up in VT when after the first round, two of us wanted to throw hole #12 on the way back to Tournament Central and we were told by fellow competitors that we could not until the cards were turned in. I disagreed but chose not to throw anyway.

[Josh Connell]

803.01 General
B. Practice Throws. A player who throws a practice throw or an extra throw with any disc any time after the start of his or her round and prior to his or her finishing the last hole of the round (except for throws that must be re thrown in accordance with the rules, provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3), or throws during a suspension or postponement of play) shall receive one penalty throw. The practice throw or extra throw must be observed by any two players or an official.

As soon as the last putt is holed out, the round is over. Players can't be penalized for throwing shots after the last hole is complete. So in your case, Danny, you'd have been perfectly fine to play that hole.

Where I think players may be confusing things is with regard to the alcohol possession/consumption rule in the Competition Manual. That specifically says it is not allowed between the start of play and the card being turned in.

3.3 Player Misconduct
(10) Possession of alcohol from the start of play until the player's scorecard is submitted. Such possession shall result in immediate disqualification at PDGA events sanctioned at B-Tier or higher. The Tournament Director may, at his sole discretion, elect to issue a warning to the offending player in lieu of disqualification solely at PDGA events sanctioned at C-tier and below. If a player has been previously issued a warning for alcohol possession at the same event, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification.

Two different rules, two different periods of time.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

803.01 General
B. Practice Throws. A player who throws a practice throw or an extra throw with any disc any time after the start of his or her round and prior to his or her finishing the last hole of the round (except for throws that must be re thrown in accordance with the rules, provisional throws made pursuant to 803.01 C and 803.01 D (3), or throws during a suspension or postponement of play) shall receive one penalty throw. The practice throw or extra throw must be observed by any two players or an official.

As soon as the last putt is holed out, the round is over. Players can't be penalized for throwing shots after the last hole is complete. So in your case, Danny, you'd have been perfectly fine to play that hole.

Where I think players may be confusing things is with regard to the alcohol possession/consumption rule in the Competition Manual. That specifically says it is not allowed between the start of play and the card being turned in.

Charlie and Craig finished their last holes(were on different cards) and discovered they were tied.
They called me from Hole#1 and asked if they should just start the playoff.
I declined and said they should come back to tourney central to have their scores verified.
I realize a math error on their part would've been HIGHLY unlikely but I figured that the scores needed to be verified BEFORE the playoff started.

I also missed the rule about playoffs starting on hole #1 unless specified before the tourney. I had the Am1 playoff start at hole #6 so the rest of the players could watch from the grandstands(tennis court was used for tourney central) and was gonna have the MPOs play there also.

[Todd Lapham]

No downside to letting them playoff when they called. If infact there was a math error, then there would have been nothing lost except a couple unnecessary throws due to an unnecessary playoff.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

No downside to letting them playoff when they called. If infact there was a math error, then there would have been nothing lost except a couple unnecessary throws due to an unnecessary playoff.

I was looking for a rule that they HAD to turn the cards in before the playoff started. Can't seem to find that wording in the book so I apologize for the unneccessary trip across the park.

Thanks to JDB for the shuttle service.

[Josh Connell]

No downside to letting them playoff when they called. If infact there was a math error, then there would have been nothing lost except a couple unnecessary throws due to an unnecessary playoff.

I was looking for a rule that they HAD to turn the cards in before the playoff started. Can't seem to find that wording in the book so I apologize for the unneccessary trip across the park.

Thanks to JDB for the shuttle service.

There isn't anything in the book that specifically mentions playoffs and whether the card must be turned in and verified prior to beginning a playoff. However, I think an argument could be made that a playoff round is a brand-new round of play. In order to start that new round, they'd have to turn in the card(s) from the previous round to the TD, have the scores verified, and then get an official start call from the TD or TD designate (even if the start call is telling them "go out to hole X and just start playing").

I don't think you were wrong in the least in asking the players to return to tournament central and turn in the cards first, if for no other reason than what if there was a third player that was also tied? If Cuts and Charlie went and did their playoff on their own and then found out someone else was tied with them too, then what? Do the playoff over again, of course, but not without a bit of wasted time and energy, and woe be Cuts if he loses that playoff after winning the "unofficial" one.

I made the mistake once of congratulating the guy who I thought had won the tournament...shook his hand, etc. He had had the first round lead, had a five stroke lead on the best of the second card entering round two, and shot the low round on the lead card in the second round to extend whatever lead he'd had on them. Seemed like he had made himself uncatchable, except that someone on the second card shot a course record round and snuck in one stroke ahead. Whoops. Now I'm careful never to congratulate anyone or assume anything until the scores are in. I would think the same lesson would apply to ties and playoff scenarios...until everything is official and the TD has sorted things out, it's better to not assume anything.