Lets talk rollers

[Titan Bariloni]

I wanna get better at these..not many places around here but else where around the world there is..sick of laboring hard when a guy just pops some roller

give your tips on forehand/backhand
style of disc overstable/understable...edge type mid/fairway/high speed..beat,worn,new

TY

[Jeff Wiechowski]

HEAVILY beat up DX Beast is my go-to disc for the RHBH roller. Throw flat, it'll turnover and hit the ground about 200 ft out.
The key to it is what angle the disc hits the ground at. 10 o'clock is the sweet spot for me.
And put as much spin on it as possible..... the disc is touching my forearm before release.

Remind me at Hunter and I'll show you how I do it.

Thanks to Kevin Rounds for pushing the roller shot.......... i've taken a couple strokes off my game with it.

[Kenji Cline]

Beat star valk is my go to rhbh roller disc off the tee. Unlike Jeff I come over the top and throw at the ground ~75 100 ft out. The angle that the disc hits the ground is important 10-1030 like Jeff said to get max distance. With good snap the disc will turn a little left then stand up and flip towards the faceplate and finish right. I throw a dx stingray for mid roller a little less power for good accuracy. My putter beat soft magnet for a thumb roller rescue shots. And a star orc for forehand rollers. Rollers are all about snap to landing angle to make your lines.

[Karl Molitoris]

I kinda get how to throw them BH and FHR but just don't have the confidence to throw in a tourney off the box...

also practicing in a field is not always what the terrain offers on an actual DG course..hole say 13 at PCC is a good example of a great DG reality roller shot

so I am gonna try some out..what disc Karl? understable/overstable? edge style midrange/fairway/fast speed?

Doubles is a GREAT place to "try something when it means something" but NOT risk TOO much (providing your partner is 'in play' about where you'd be anyway)! In the 2010 Am World Doubles, my partner was "in play" on the Hills course's #14 and I knew I'd never be able to beat his with anything but a RHBH (due to the shape of the hole) so I also tried one. And bested his (a 1 in a 'quite a few ' shot!). Did WONDERS for my confidence in throwing BHs.

Yup, PCC's 13 can be rolled. I also roll 15 (4 times rolling = 2x3s and 2x2s)


When it comes to "what discs should I use for rollers", I'll give a brief intro to them here, but bear with me - there's a lot more I could say about this topic but once you read this you'll just want to go 'figure it out for yourself'...which IS the best way!

1.
ANY disc can be used when rolling. Sounds silly, but 'tis true. And there is NO 'perfect roller disc'; just some that are better (in general) for certain types (of rollers AND people) than others.

2.
I'd suggest though only using a few, as the more time you spend with any 1 disc the more you'll really get a feel for how that disc "works for you" (as we're all different ).

3.
In general, rollers have a tendency to finish falling towards their tops. So rhbh's will usually end up going L to R and rhfh's end up going R to L.

4.
Bigger diameter discs have a tendency to roll 'better' than smaller diameter discs (all else being equal). This is due to their majority of mass being further away from their axis of rotation (thus carrying more impedus). In addition, heavier discs roll 'better'. Also, thinner discs roll 'better' (Birdies or Zephers are NOT my first choices for a long-distance roller , nor are 10meter Bricks ) as less grass can 'interfere' with the disc's forward progress.

5.
Most humans (not those who can air flight discs a million miles) will find that BH rollers are easier to throw using under stable discs. If you are throwing a bh roller for distance, an under stable driver with a sharp edge is probably your best bet. Why I'm advocating a sharp-edged disc is akin to the bicycle tires used in road races being 16 -19mm in width (when they used to be 25 - 29mm); the smaller the width, the less rolling resistence. Why I'm advocating an under stable disc? Because (as you'll observe once you experiment with each) if you try throwing an over stable discs bh roller, it will be much harder to 'get to eventually turn straight upright', and you'll see your intended-to-finish-to-the-right disc cut rolling a LONG way to the left. NG (insert much @#$%&#%! ing)!

6.
Most humans (see above) will find that FH rollers are easier to throw using over stable discs. If you are throwing a fh roller for distance, an over stable driver with a sharp edge is probably your best bet. Why sharp edge? See above 5, last sentence. Why over stable? Because, for most people, an over stable fh'd rollered disc will resist laying down (on its top) for a longer time than an under stable disc will. And thus less of a "cut roller angle" will you have to place the disc initially to prevent / delay its turn over.

7.
Exactly WHICH disc is NOT important (there is no - except including attributed already mentioned above - "super roller disc", and ALL discs CAN be used for such). What IS important is trying a few (you probably have it already in your bag...it's just waiting for you to give it a new job!), settling in on maybe 1 (or 2 max) of each (fh and bh) and then practicing:

a. release angles
b. release points
c. how far to 'air it' (until it hits ground) when compared to both a. and b.

I happen to (presently) use a beat-to-crap Nuke for my bh roller...but could very easily transition to, say, a Roadrunner.
I happen to (presently) use a Flick for my fh roller...but could very easily transition to, say, a Max.
I happen to (presently) us, as my "under 250foot roller disc", an Arrow...but could very easily transition to some other putter (well, maybe not ...please don't make me ).

To summarize, you probably already have ALL your roller discs already in your bag - you just don't know that yet ! So get out and practice.

Karl

[Mike Dussault]

Decent explanation, however...


RHBH roller, the more overstable the disc, the more likely to travel left(cut roller). The more understable the disc, the more likely to flip to the right.

[Karl Molitoris]

Mikey,

Only 'decent' ?
And really there is no 'however...', as we're saying the same thing (read carefully ). You just expounded on the 'if it isn't easy to turn over, you'll GET the cut roller'. Which is true.

Karl

[Titan Bariloni]

does downhill/uphill effect the above mentioned examples of over/under stable?

[Karl Molitoris]

Nope, not to any great extent at all (in my experience). A person's 'variability' (in release angle, etc.) will WAY more affect a disc's roller path than will any up/down hill aspects placed on it. So pretend (the up/down hill part) it doesn't even exist. Well, except that when you throw an uphill roller you have to throw it harder (for an equivalent distance) .

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Downhill/uphill affects the roller not only in the obvious speed area but it'll also affect the direction of the disc.

For RHBH:
Once a roller begins to go uphill, it'll cut faster to the right.
If the disc encounters a sudden downhill slope, it tends to hold it's line longer.

[Karl Molitoris]

Jeff,

It's my belief that while what you're saying (in the previous post) is true, it's because of something that I want people to understand may be something other than what could be gleaned from your statements.

"Once a roller begins to go uphill, it'll cut faster to the right." - is because the disc is slowing down at a rate faster than we expect (it's going uphill), and any rolling disc that is slowing down is apt to 'fall towards its top'.
"If the disc encounters a sudden downhill slope, it tends to hold it's line longer." - again, because it's (in this latter case) NOT slowing down 'as much as we expect' and thus holds its original speed longer, and thus resisting this 'falling over'.

I know of no force vectors (that may cause such a sudden change in the disc's direction) acting on the disc - other than the ever-present gravity and the initial force(s) exerted by the thrower at release (and there are a few of these latter ones) - that would cause a disc's inherent properties to change due to rolling up or down hills.

Summary: It's the environmental / physical situation (increase / lack of speed) that causes the disc to do something, not the disc itself. The same could be said about headwind / tailwind discs!

Karl

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Yes, the act of it going uphill/downhill changes the speed of the disc and it reacts accordingly.

Another thing i've noticed with rollers interacting with undulating surfaces is the bounce-up. If the disc kicks up while it's still moving fast, it'll tend to wanna "start flying" again. What i mean is that a disc rolling at full speed hits a rock and gets airborne, the angle seems to go back the opposite way(11 o'clock on the ground and 10-1030 when it catches air). Two or three hops and it ends up considerably off the intended line.

[Patrick Harris]

For me...

Long-distance roller - Beaten DX Sidewinder (didn't know that this disc just became OOPS).

Mid-distance roller - FLX Buzzz

Short-distance roller - Arrow (thanks to Karl!!)

[Arty Graustein]

150 class beat dx Leopards make great BH rollers for weenie arms like myself. Parked holes 16 and 17 at Barre with them on more than one occasion. Of course most decent throwers could reach these holes fairly easily in the air.

[Karl Molitoris]

Cut yourself some slack on Barre 16 AG; 'tisint the easiest hole by a long shot. ANY 2 there is wonderful.

[Titan Bariloni]

well as karl said...16 and 17 are no gimmies for most noodle or not

billy d best drive I ever saw on 17..rare rare 2 IMO for most..
16 yeah hit that gap and give it a good rip that does what ya want and then hit a windy putt ya got a 2

did not get to practice rollers this week...well long range..starting in the yard with approach rollers just to get comfortable with the motion more...

during my 2 week off period starting monday..I will be working on rollers,flick putts and thumbers..gotta say the rest of my game seems pretty good of late...just some crap approaches so maybe being comfortable with a few more shots might help rather forcing what I know in spots where above could be used..yeah some missed putts..but all those missed putts woulda been made if the approach was where it shoulda been...leaving those testers all day is recipe for failure and shouldnt be blamed on poor putting IMO

edit..last 2 events I had 6 spots where I shot whacked a close tree and said crap I shoulda just rolled it up there..

what I realize now is less is actually more with rollers..was throwing my short rollers to hard causing them to be errant or not on edge enough to ever roll..kinda belly skipped instead..just a lil downward flick of wrist is resulting in some good roller approaches..hitting closer to my stance rather trying to make disc hit ground to start roll further away from lie seems better..as I am starting to trust them to make it all the way even making contact 5-6 feet ahead of lie

double edit....on a BH roller when they bomb one out there get some flight then the roll...is that all done with disc selection? a beat disc that does this..or is there still a roller type of motion as kenji eluded to of come out "over the top of the throw"

[Titan Bariloni]

also lets talk holes around NE that are often rolled? or good spot to roll

PCC will start the roller parade around here eventually I assume as really only place to roll around here..once the first guy starts doing it with success all the locals will jump on the bandwagon and thus the roller in tullyrossrock area will be born

seen the flick stage..the overhander phase...rollers are next!!!

[Kenji Cline]

Come over to Jpark. Lots of roller holes on Jwest. Rollers my tee shot on 1, 2, 8, 26, 27, and 9's upshot.

A little closer to you crane hill rolled alot off the tee at the crane hill open 1, 2, 3, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

4's upshot too

[Kenji Cline]

4's upshot too

The crap in front of the wall is kinda bad this year haven't been throwing the roller here as much. Need to rake up some branch pieces there.

[Karl Molitoris]

double edit....on a BH roller when they bomb one out there get some flight then the roll...is that all done with disc selection? a beat disc that does this..or is there still a roller type of motion as kenji eluded to of come out "over the top of the throw"

This type of roller, IMO, is the hardest to do (but WILL get you the most distance). It's the risk/reward roller, and therefore the least used (if you haven't mastered it - and few have).

A it's akin to a fh roller that, instead of having it hit the ground 50' (or so) in front of you at a 1:30 position (or so) and roll the rest of the 300' way, you're trying to "fly" the roller out 100'+ and THEN roll. Problem is you can 'hit your o'clock position' with a 50' throw-and-roll but it's MUCH harder to hit the precise angle when flying a fh roller way out there (and then the puppy goes crazy/AWOL/stoopid-wrong really quickly).

If you set down your bh roller in the first 150' or so, you have 1/2-a-chance at getting the disc's angle correct (for a forward roll...finishing to the right), but if you fly it out there 300' and THEN have it try to roll, you have to be Joe Mela precise or - most of the time - you'll end up with 1) a squirrelly snap to the right and maybe come back at you type dead roller, 2) no roller at all - as it will either hyzer out just enough to stop / dig in right there, or 3) the cut roller that goes exactly the WRONG direction you want your disc to finish. Oh, and once in a while you actually pull it off !

'Tis a tuffy and probably needs to be worked into (after figuring out the other roller types).
That roller may be the most spectacular looking but it comes with a price (that of potentially being really wrong).

Karl

[Craig Smolin]

Karl's right ... the hardest roller to consistently pull off is the air roller or sky roller ...

Watch the old Skylands Classic dvd and skip ahead to Hole 15 silver to blue and Hole 18 silver to blue... IMO ... these particular holes are two of the best I've ever seen for this type of shot. Watching Hole 18 blue to blue, the top pros throw an air shot off the tee and over the rock wall, then they will attempt a HUGE sky roller around the left side of the fairway to get up the hill and through the trees - another incredibly hard shot to consistently pull off.

[Paul Oechsli]

Karl

Great explanation. However, with respect to FH rollers I much prefer an overstable driver with a more "rounded" edge (like a Champion Monster) as opposed to the "sharp edge". While I acknowledge your point on "more drag" with a larger edge hitting the ground, I feel that this is more than offset by the extra "forgiveness" that a rounded edge provides.

A sharp edge will go further, however it much more vulnerable to not landing at the correct angle and quickly veering off to the left (or right, but more often left) and goins askew. The rounded edge provides more buffer in the landing and thus consistently better results, especially if one tries to "sculpt" the FH rollers to break to either the left (easier) or to the right (harder).

At Wick, holes 2 and 9 provide for good FH roller opportunities off of the tee, as well shot #2 on hole 6 if your drive is short.

[Karl Molitoris]

Paul,

I have no problem with a 'rounder-edged' over stable disc for a FH roller; that I happen to use a Flick is only because 1) they're really / equally over stable, and 2) I happen to have 2 in the bag already (for forehands). If I didn't use a Flick I'd probably go with a Max or a Monster myself! But I just can't see putting in ANOTHER mold of disc into my bag JUST for FH rollers....

Karl

[Joe Wander]

For those throwing FH rollers, I suggest trying a Zone. Doesn't look particularly well suited to the job but I've found Zones to roll remarkably well. Might be the blunt edge or having much of the weight on the perimeter, whatever the reason, they roll and roll. I carry three for left, straight, or right hand benders.

My recommendation to new throwers is to concentrate on hitting a landing spot in the fairway (the prime directive) while working on different landing angles and speeds. My experience is that overly aggressive throws don't work well unless you're looking for a disc to turn a corner quickly. Easy does it, and the thing will stand up and keep on rolling. Too much spin, not so good.

Joe

[Titan Bariloni]

My recommendation to new throwers is to concentrate on hitting a landing spot in the fairway (the prime directive) while working on different landing angles and speeds. My experience is that overly aggressive throws don't work well unless you're looking for a disc to turn a corner quickly. Easy does it, and the thing will stand up and keep on rolling. Too much spin, not so good.

so true..if ya can't hit that first landing zone your screwed or errant

and it seems to me that less is more for sure

just trusting the disc to roll far with little effort is so mentaly tough to do..esp in a tourney

[Paul Oechsli]

For those throwing FH rollers, I suggest trying a Zone. Doesn't look particularly well suited to the job but I've found Zones to roll remarkably well. Might be the blunt edge or having much of the weight on the perimeter, whatever the reason, they roll and roll. I carry three for left, straight, or right hand benders.

My recommendation to new throwers is to concentrate on hitting a landing spot in the fairway (the prime directive) while working on different landing angles and speeds. My experience is that overly aggressive throws don't work well unless you're looking for a disc to turn a corner quickly. Easy does it, and the thing will stand up and keep on rolling. Too much spin, not so good.

Joe

Joe

Zone ESP or Pro D Zone models? Or does it not matter?

Thanks

[Joe Wander]

For those throwing FH rollers, I suggest trying a Zone. Doesn't look particularly well suited to the job but I've found Zones to roll remarkably well. Might be the blunt edge or having much of the weight on the perimeter, whatever the reason, they roll and roll. I carry three for left, straight, or right hand benders.

My recommendation to new throwers is to concentrate on hitting a landing spot in the fairway (the prime directive) while working on different landing angles and speeds. My experience is that overly aggressive throws don't work well unless you're looking for a disc to turn a corner quickly. Easy does it, and the thing will stand up and keep on rolling. Too much spin, not so good.

Joe

Joe

Zone ESP or Pro D Zone models? Or does it not matter?

Thanks

Hi, Paul. I find everything fancy too slippery, so I use D plastic. Other plastics should roll just as well, I'm guessing.

[Matt DeAngelis]

Depending on the situation, I use a wide variety of discs for rollers. For distance, a star roadrunner that turns over 100ft down the fairway and hits at a 45-60 degree angle. I use the forehand roller far more often and use champ monster, champ cobra, elite z wasp, or a harder jk aviar, depending on conditions.

[Kyle Moriarty]

Z Predator for FH rollers!!! I have also been known to throw a zone or a firm ridge when i need just a short roller.

[Bobby Direnzo]

I am the man at rollers..that is all..