A Fun Read: Q & A

[Matt Aubin]

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/Authoritative_Rules_QA_v12_2011.pdf

All of the answers to these rules questions are 'the word..' some very interesting stuff in here. Such as:

"Q: My group agrees that my disc landed in a murky body of casual water. We could not find it. Do I play it as lost, or take casual relief?
A: If your group agrees that there is compelling evidence that the disc is in the puddle, then you assume it is in fact in the puddle, and take casual relief without penalty. Your group will need to agree on an approximate location so that you can take your relief. If your group is not confident that the disc is in the puddle, it is played as a lost disc."


This one's for all you hot heads:

Q: Are there any restrictions on how you throw the disc? For example, can you throw nothing but overhand shots?
A: There are no restrictions on how you throw the disc. You may throw backhand, sidearm, overhand, thumber, or any other way that occurs to you. You can throw it with your foot if that works for you. Note: That also means that kicking the disc can be penalized as a practice throw.



Now, here's one that I think is worded wrong and might need amendment:

QA3: Building a Lie
Q: My disc landed in a creek that has been declared casual. May I place a rock or a broken limb behind my mark, to stand on in order to keep my feet dry?

A: If you choose not to take casual relief up to 5m back on the line of play, then you must take your stance as you would anywhere else on the course. You are not allowed to move obstacles on the course to build your lie, or for any other reason, unless they are casual obstacles. If you do not want to play the lie as is, or take casual relief, you may declare Optional Relief or an Optional Rethrow at the cost of one throw.

B. Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director).



The way QA3 is worded in bold, it sounds as if you cannot use obstacles to build a stance UNLESS they are casual obstacles... I know the rules means 'play it where it lies no building a stance in a puddle' BUT someone could get picky and say that a casual obstacle can be used to build a stance.

[Josh Connell]

Now, here's one that I think is worded wrong and might need amendment:

QA3: Building a Lie
Q: My disc landed in a creek that has been declared casual. May I place a rock or a broken limb behind my mark, to stand on in order to keep my feet dry?

A: If you choose not to take casual relief up to 5m back on the line of play, then you must take your stance as you would anywhere else on the course. You are not allowed to move obstacles on the course to build your lie, or for any other reason, unless they are casual obstacles. If you do not want to play the lie as is, or take casual relief, you may declare Optional Relief or an Optional Rethrow at the cost of one throw.

B. Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director).



The way QA3 is worded in bold, it sounds as if you cannot use obstacles to build a stance UNLESS they are casual obstacles... I know the rules means 'play it where it lies no building a stance in a puddle' BUT someone could get picky and say that a casual obstacle can be used to build a stance.

I think what you are reading into the bolded is essentially correct. The key is the definition of a casual obstacle, and that includes the phrase just prior to the list you bolded: "obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area". If loose leaves, debris, motor vehicles, etc are not within your stance area, they are not casual obstacles. They are simply obstacles and you can't move them.

So based on that interpretation, it's not the placing of the obstacle under your foot that the rules prohibit, it's the removal of the obstacle from its original resting place that is prohibited. I'd argue that if there was a rock just behind your disc in that creek, and you could shift that rock on its side or move it back three inches so that it stood tall enough to be above the surface of the water, that you are be allowed to do so and stand on that rock in order to keep your feet dry. After all, by the letter of the rule, the rock is a casual obstacle. You're allowed to move it by rule, and the rule say nothing about where you must move it.

[Matt Grayum]

Now, here's one that I think is worded wrong and might need amendment:

QA3: Building a Lie
Q: My disc landed in a creek that has been declared casual. May I place a rock or a broken limb behind my mark, to stand on in order to keep my feet dry?

A: If you choose not to take casual relief up to 5m back on the line of play, then you must take your stance as you would anywhere else on the course. You are not allowed to move obstacles on the course to build your lie, or for any other reason, unless they are casual obstacles. If you do not want to play the lie as is, or take casual relief, you may declare Optional Relief or an Optional Rethrow at the cost of one throw.

B. Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director).



The way QA3 is worded in bold, it sounds as if you cannot use obstacles to build a stance UNLESS they are casual obstacles... I know the rules means 'play it where it lies no building a stance in a puddle' BUT someone could get picky and say that a casual obstacle can be used to build a stance.

I think what you are reading into the bolded is essentially correct. The key is the definition of a casual obstacle, and that includes the phrase just prior to the list you bolded: "obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area". If loose leaves, debris, motor vehicles, etc are not within your stance area, they are not casual obstacles. They are simply obstacles and you can't move them.

So based on that interpretation, it's not the placing of the obstacle under your foot that the rules prohibit, it's the removal of the obstacle from its original resting place that is prohibited. I'd argue that if there was a rock just behind your disc in that creek, and you could shift that rock on its side or move it back three inches so that it stood tall enough to be above the surface of the water, that you are be allowed to do so and stand on that rock in order to keep your feet dry. After all, by the letter of the rule, the rock is a casual obstacle. You're allowed to move it by rule, and the rule say nothing about where you must move it.

Came across this question during league play last night. When standing on the side of a steep hill, a rock placed under the heal can help maintain balance and support against slipping. The disc came to rest just beyond this rock that was only slightly buried (could easily be kicked aside). Can the rock be moved back so that my heel/toes could rest on it? It is a casual obstacle that affects my stance.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Josh Connell - After all, by the letter of the rule, the rock is a casual obstacle. You're allowed to move it by rule, and the rule say nothing about where you must move it.

A rock is not a casual object per 803.05B.

[Josh Connell]

Josh Connell - After all, by the letter of the rule, the rock is a casual obstacle. You're allowed to move it by rule, and the rule say nothing about where you must move it.

A rock is not a casual object per 803.05B.

Rocks and pebbles would fall under "loose leaves or debris", IMO. If they don't, every player who has ever kicked a loose rock out of their stance so they could stand with their foot flat on the playing surface has been wrong. That would amount to just about every player I've ever played with in my life.

[Chris Martin]

Is there any thickness limit for a mat/towel placed on the tee? Does the 1cm rule for other body parts apply for feet on the tee? (Q&A 13)

[Chuck Kennedy]

Stone > Pebble > Gravel > Sand could be considered debris as they might be small enough to be considered part of the ground.

There's a size where a rock would not be considered "debris". You may mark behind a rock of that size using the solid object rule but shouldn't move it. If a rock is big enough where you would be willing to move it and use it to provide support, it's too big to be debris and would violate the spirit of the casual relief rule if you moved it.

[Mike Cormier]

Stone > Pebble > Gravel > Sand could be considered debris as they might be small enough to be considered part of the ground.

There's a size where a rock would not be considered "debris". You may mark behind a rock of that size using the solid object rule but shouldn't move it. If a rock is big enough where you would be willing to move it and use it to provide support, it's too big to be debris and would violate the spirit of the casual relief rule if you moved it.

Why is a loose rock (the size of a softball perhaps?) different from a loose, broken up tree limb as thick as a telephone pole? If you can move the dead and free branch why not a rock on the ground? I get that you can't dig up a 90% buried boulder but if you have a beach ball sized stone sitting on top of the ground what makes that less casual than a tree limb if you can push it out of the way?

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Stone > Pebble > Gravel > Sand could be considered debris as they might be small enough to be considered part of the ground.

There's a size where a rock would not be considered "debris". You may mark behind a rock of that size using the solid object rule but shouldn't move it. If a rock is big enough where you would be willing to move it and use it to provide support, it's too big to be debris and would violate the spirit of the casual relief rule if you moved it.

I know it's ball golf but.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4lVCF8c5zk

[Chris Mergemekes]

every player who has ever kicked a loose rock out of their stance so they could stand with their foot flat on the playing surface has been wrong. That would amount to just about every player I've ever played with in my life.

Guilty

[Matt Stroika]

Stone > Pebble > Gravel > Sand could be considered debris as they might be small enough to be considered part of the ground.

There's a size where a rock would not be considered "debris". You may mark behind a rock of that size using the solid object rule but shouldn't move it. If a rock is big enough where you would be willing to move it and use it to provide support, it's too big to be debris and would violate the spirit of the casual relief rule if you moved it.

I know it's ball golf but.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4lVCF8c5zk

There you go. Sounds like a bolder is debris by the rules of golf. Why not in disc golf. Good points on the log.

Speaking of Tiger, I have been watching Tuesday night 'Majors replays' on the Golf Channel lately. Last night they were showing the 2000 Masters where Tiger eventually beats Bob May in a 3 hole playoff to capture the title for the 2nd time in 2 years. Clutch shot after clutch shot were made by both of them leading up to and into the playoff. I kind of forgot how money the old Tiger was.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The difference in this case is that ball golf plays the ball where it lies and disc golf marks it to throw from above where it lies.

[Mike Cormier]

Right, but in ball golf they can stand anywhere the h3ll they want around the lie so moving the boulder is for convenience where for us it's a matter of a safe footing.... On the other hand, knees and ankles are overrated anyways

[Chuck Kennedy]

No regular marking or relief rule is written primarily due to safety concerns. You can use the Optional Rethrow or Relief rules if you feel your safety is at risk.

[Mike Cormier]

Ok, fair enough... safety and simplicity in the rules are not the concern of the PDGA. We got that. Can you clarify (I really don't expect a clear answer here anyways): what IS the difference between a large movable stone in your stance and a dead unattached stick/branch/tree limb? (other than the material of which they are made)

[Chuck Kennedy]

The rock is presumed to "always" have been there (or stay there) and dead things are temporary and biodegrade.

[Troy Dietrich]

The rock is presumed to "always" have been there (or stay there) and dead things are temporary and biodegrade.

I completely disagree. The rock could have rolled to it's current position from a higher location, days, hours, minutes, or seconds before the disc arrived. Just as a large dead branch could have been there for years. I don't see any difference. Biodegradable?! What about a discarded beer can or other trash?

Here's the definition of "debris" per Merriam-Webster:
There's no mention of a dead or biodegradable requirement...in fact rocks seem to be one of it's primary components.

de·bris noun

Definition of DEBRIS
1: the remains of something broken down or destroyed
2: an accumulation of fragments of rock
3: something discarded : rubbish

Examples of DEBRIS
After the earthquake, rescuers began digging through the debris in search of survivors.
Everything was covered by dust and debris.

[Chuck Kennedy]

You can disagree but the question aksed why the RC has apparently specified a difference between rocks and unattached branches. Using the broader definition of debris, basically anything not attached that's in your stance or run-up could be moved but I don't think that's the intent of the rules. Otherwise, why go thru the effort to specify casual objects?

[Mike Cormier]

So what's the difference between a "pebble" and a larger stone? At what point is it not ok to move something stone?: Marble, golfball, baseball, softball, as big as you can move by yourself? Unless it would put there on purpose as part of a stone wall or a man made obstacle like the huge boulders coming from the woods to the field on Maple Hill hole 12 then I'll argue it's debris.

Like I had said before, I wouldn't go digging something up but if it's on top of the dirt and I can move it I'm going to until it's better defined.

I hate that "spirit of the rule" crap when it comes to something like this.... It sounds like just another way of saying "we don't know where to draw the line or how to deal with this formally".

[Troy Dietrich]

Using the broader definition of debris, basically anything not attached that's in your stance or run-up could be moved but I don't think that's the intent of the rules. Otherwise, why go thru the effort to specify casual objects?

So what do you think they meant by debris if not rocks?

Clearly there comes a point at which a rock should no longer be considered debris, but it's not defined. I think that if it's small enough to be easily moved without impeding the speed of play, its debris and you should be free to move it ( provided its not part of a larger object, like a wall or a border protecting/defining something) I also think that a large boulder should be considered a fixed object with no relief provided. Otherwise someone could try to claim casual relief from the side of a cliff, claiming said cliff to be rock debris from the last ice age. Haha!

As its written it seems to be a gray area open to interpritation.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Preliminary comment from the RC head which really doesn't address the tweener size situation. The original question was related to moving something under your feet to build a lie which still isn't allowed whether using a casual or not a casual obstacle.

Conrad:
"The size at which a stone goes from moveable debris to immovable obstacle is always going to be a bit arbitrary. One approach is that if you can physically move it, you can call it debris. In most cases it's not worth the trouble to move a rock that's very heavy and difficult to move."