Question for Josh

[Titan Bariloni]

synergy is good right?

under the rules can I take a provisional at anytime?

or does there have to be underlying circumstances to do so?
I would think speed of play would trump this at times when there is no circumstance

[Josh Connell]

synergy is good right?

under the rules can I take a provisional at anytime?

or does there have to be underlying circumstances to do so?
I would think speed of play would trump this at times when there is no circumstance

There always has to be a reason to take a provisional throw or throws, otherwise it's not a provisional, it's a practice throw. In the case of a potential time saving action, the majority of the group has to approve the use of a provisional. You can't just declare a provisional and throw it without the group knowing why (in case the original disc is lost, OB, etc) and agreeing with you that it is a prudent course of action.

803.01 General
C. Provisional Throws. Provisional throws are extra throws that are not added to a player's score if they are not ultimately used in completion of the hole. The use of provisional throws is encouraged in all situations where there is a question regarding a thrower's lie and a provisional would speed play or when the thrower questions the group's or official's ruling. The unused throws shall not be added to the thrower's score nor treated as practice throws if the player announces that such additional throws are made as provisional throws prior to taking them. A provisional throw may not be subsequently declared to be an optional rethrow. Provisional throws are appropriate in the following circumstances:

1) To save time: A player may declare a provisional throw any time (a) the status of a disc cannot immediately be determined, and (b) the majority of the group agrees that playing a provisional throw may save time, and (c) the original throw may be out of bounds, lost, or have missed a mandatory. When proceeding under this type of provisional the thrower shall complete the hole from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an official as the appropriate lie according to the rules.

(2) To appeal the group's or an official's ruling: A set of provisional throws may be taken to complete a hole pursuant to 803.01 D

(3) when the player disagrees with the majority group decision and an official is not readily available, or if the player wishes to appeal the decision of an official. The scores from both sets of throws shall be recorded. The proper ruling and score are then determined by the director at the end of the round.

[Danny White]

Titan - this doesn't happen to relate to Hole#9 at Hunter mountain does it?

[Titan Bariloni]

well kinda..but in that case it is logical and well fun...just before that was thinking about this...and then after that was thinking about it

that hole is way logical to just do it unless pretty visible..as I may have cashed that day cuz one of my opponents did not throw a provisional..he then had to walk back up a mountain...after searching like crazy for his disc...I cashed by a stroke..
he also took bee stings earlier...added with the heat and the extra walk...coulda been the difference

the question was more cuz I would use it more then I would want to ever not allow someone to do it

[Jeff Wiechowski]

well kinda..but in that case it is logical and well fun...just before that was thinking about this...and then after that was thinking about it

that hole is way logical to just do it unless pretty visible..as I may have cashed that day cuz one of my opponents did not throw a provisional..he then had to walk back up a mountain...after searching like crazy for his disc...

That was brutal to watch. And the one time i'd not been watching drives, his goes off course and i couldn't help guide him to the area it was last seen. To top it off, Anthony Bee also lost a disc off the OTHER side of the fairway.

[Titan Bariloni]

do you get relief from a mando?

if it is considered OB..I would think you would then be allotted relief

I have heard/read that if you miss it..you can then go to mando and take relief up to 5 meters..is this true?

guess my real question is..if you don't miss it and are up against it are you allotted relief?

TY

[Jeff Wiechowski]

do you get relief from a mando?

if it is considered OB..I would think you would then be allotted relief

I have heard/read that if you miss it..you can then go to mando and take relief up to 5 meters..is this true?

guess my real question is..if you don't miss it and are up against it are you allotted relief?

TY

I'd heard something to that effect also, Titan.

Something like you can draw a line from the mando out in the correct direction, perpendicular to the line to the pin. Like a drop zone tee right at the mando.

[Matt DeAngelis]

If you miss the mando, then you take a one throw penalty and proceed to drop zone designated by the TD or course designer. If no drop zone is announced or designed then the player forms a drop zone within a distance from the mando line.

From what I can tell, no rules of relief apply if you've successfully navigated the mando and are up against the object that the mando is on.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

If no drop zone is announced or designed then the player forms a drop zone within a distance from the mando line.

Like this?

[Matt DeAngelis]

That's how I read the rule on mandatory play.

[Chuck Kennedy]

No special relief provided from mando object.

The default mando line, if not marked, is perpendicular to the tee not the pin as shown in the above drawing.

The default drop zone (if not provided) is a point chosen by the player that is marked up to 5m from the "good" side of the mando object and one meter behind the good mando line.

Note: The good side mando line and the missed mando lines can go in different directions (as opposed to being in line if not marked) if marked that way. The lines also do not have to be drawn straight. There may be a reason to have the good side line be perpendicular with the tee (normal) but the missed mando side to angle straight back more towards the tee to link up with an OB area and continue to follow the curve of the OB line. This way, when a disc misses the mando, there's no decision whether it went OB first or missed the mando first. The player goes to the drop zone no matter what since missing the mando takes precedence over OB when they are the same line.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

The default mando line, if not marked, is perpendicular to the tee not the pin as shown in the above drawing.

Thanks Chuck !

[Josh Connell]

do you get relief from a mando?

if it is considered OB..I would think you would then be allotted relief

I have heard/read that if you miss it..you can then go to mando and take relief up to 5 meters..is this true?

guess my real question is..if you don't miss it and are up against it are you allotted relief?

TY

It isn't considered OB. OB is OB. A missed mando is a missed mando. If you haven't passed the mando object, it is still like any other object on the course...no relief, play around it as best you can, legally.

Seriously, though,. the rule book is online at pdga.com/rules. They're all there in black and white. No need to wonder what the rule is. No need to wonder if what you've heard is true. If it's in the book, it's true. If it isn't, it isn't.

[Titan Bariloni]

the rules are confusing that is why...and as ya said before many myths run a muck..

and this drop zone is it five meters in any direction if no drop is specified?

they need a non paper copy of rules book..or I need a better system of keeping it dry..put it in bag have went through several from forgetting it and then gets wet

[Mike Connell]

If no drop zone is announced or designed then the player forms a drop zone within a distance from the mando line.

Like this?

I think the mandatory line in this illustration is incorrect. The line should be perpendicular to the line from the tee to the mando, not from the hole to the mando.

"(2) If no line is marked, the mandatory line is defined as a straight line through the mandatory, perpendicular to the line from the tee to the mandatory."

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Correct Mike..............dont have time right now to fix the diagram.

[Matt DeAngelis]

they need a non paper copy of rules book..or I need a better system of keeping it dry..put it in bag have went through several from forgetting it and then gets wet

They have a non-paper version of the rules posted at the link that Josh just pointed you to. I have it downloaded on my phone and it's searchable, so at any point during a round, I can do a quick search for keyword to find a ruling.

[Josh Connell]

the rules are confusing that is why...and as ya said before many myths run a muck..

and this drop zone is it five meters in any direction if no drop is specified?

they need a non paper copy of rules book..or I need a better system of keeping it dry..put it in bag have went through several from forgetting it and then gets wet

The rules aren't confusing if you read them. The myth thing I talked about before wasn't from misinterpreting or misunderstanding the "confusing" rule book. It's from not reading the book at all and instead taking other people's word for it when they tell you their version of the rules. The answer to your question that I italicized is right in the rule.

803.12 Mandatories
C. A disc that has missed the mandatory results in a one-throw penalty and the next throw shall be made from the drop zone, as designated for that mandatory. In cases where the drop zone is not designated, the lie is marked within five meters of the mandatory object and one meter behind the mandatory line which extends from the correct side of the mandatory.

And if you need a visual, the lie is marked anywhere on the green line in the graphic below.

[Chuck Kennedy]

and this drop zone is it five meters in any direction if no drop is specified?

I answered it in my post a few above yours and Josh's diagram above.

[Titan Bariloni]

cool TY

I like the last diagram

[Titan Bariloni]

I had a case it was almost economical to miss mando on purpose on my second shot

off the tee I landed 40 ft right of a mando but never passed mando...this forced me to throw a cut roller to set up for my next shot with 400 plus feet to go on the hole

I thought maybe retee..but the mando was right in my distance threshold so I may have done same thing..added with OB the entire way left...so then I thought well I am already at my lie and a retee might affect speed of play as I did not take provisional and did not want to back it up to tee that already had people on it waiting...so I then thought maybe just miss mando..get my relief from mando and executing the shot to get up and down for a five..

I ended up throwing the roller just to get past the mando(as the roller was no gimmie and coulda went errant leaving me with a tough lie(or OB),or still not making mando as where I had to put the shot to avoid the other OB might have hit the mando tree(huge prehistoric hardwood) leaving me in a similar situation I started with... resulting in a 6

the roller left me just around the mando tree with a good lie...put the shot down and tapped a putt out for 5

most I had to think about a shot ever I think

[Josh Connell]

I had a case it was almost economical to miss mando on purpose on my second shot

off the tee I landed 40 ft right of a mando but never passed mando...this forced me to throw a cut roller to set up for my next shot with 400 plus feet to go on the hole

I thought maybe retee..but the mando was right in my distance threshold so I may have done same thing..added with OB the entire way left...so then I thought well I am already at my lie and a retee might affect speed of play as I did not take provisional and did not want to back it up to tee that already had people on it waiting...so I then thought maybe just miss mando..get my relief from mando and executing the shot to get up and down for a five..

I ended up throwing the roller just to get past the mando(as the roller was no gimmie and coulda went errant leaving me with a tough lie(or OB),or still not making mando as where I had to put the shot to avoid the other OB might have hit the mando tree(huge prehistoric hardwood) leaving me in a similar situation I started with... resulting in a 6

the roller left me just around the mando tree with a good lie...put the shot down and tapped a putt out for 5

most I had to think about a shot ever I think

Not sure what would have been economical about intentionally missing the mando in this spot, or even re-teeing. If I understand it correctly, your tee shot landed short of the mando but on the wrong side of it to be able to pass it correctly and advance too far down the fairway. You pitched out (roller), threw from where the roller landed (~400 feet from target), then pitched up and putted out for a five. That seems as efficient and effective as you could be given your lie.

If you missed the mando intentionally with your 2nd throw, you'd have then been throwing your 4th from the drop zone (or one meter back from the mando line). Based on how you finished in reality (3 throws once you'd passed the mando), the best you were going to do from the drop zone was a six. If you declared optional rethrow and went back to the tee, you're throwing your 3rd from there. So again, at best if that re-tee passes or lands on the correct side of the mando, you're still looking at three more shots to hole out and a six in total.

You made the right call for yourself.

[Titan Bariloni]

cuz the roller may have went OB,or left me with a difficult 6, possibly 7 if not placed well

the missed mando woulda put me right there looking at the target just 400dftownhill away..a shot I knew I could make most of the time for a sure 6

so the choice was maybe 5 but maybe 6,7,8 or sure 6 in my mind

guess ya woulda had to see the hole,situation..of course it was a temp hole

[Titan_Bariloni]

I have bush/brush in my way when warming up..can I warmup swing through said obstacle?

upon release..well just prior to release some stuff moves drastically..can I do this>?

what if I alter the bush when warming up with swing...is it rules violation

TY..tried to explain what I was wondering best I could...

[Josh Connell]

I have bush/brush in my way when warming up..can I warmup swing through said obstacle?

upon release..well just prior to release some stuff moves drastically..can I do this>?

what if I alter the bush when warming up with swing...is it rules violation

TY..tried to explain what I was wondering best I could...

You can make contact with the bush/brush with a practice swing and cause movement of the obstacle, same as with the actual throwing of the disc. You can't do it in such a way that damages the obstacle and/or removes it from its original position. In other words, you can't try to clear yourself a flight path through an obstacle under the guise of taking a "practice swing" or a warmup.

The discretion of the group is what will determine what was incidental and what was intentional. Intentionally causing damage (what you call "alter the bush" I would call causing damage) is punishable by a two-throw penalty with no warning (803.01E) and is subject to disqualification from a tournament (Competition Manual 3.3 B. 4.).

The key of any legal stance is for the player to "choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle". I would say that taking a stance in which simple practice swings can move and alter the obstacle is not "choos[ing] the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle" and is therefore not acceptable.

[Titan_Bariloni]

to "choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle"

TY..I keep forgetting that key word..and your after thought of taking extra swings would then not be "least movement"

but what if for example player X always takes 3 warmup swings before he putts/etc..he is in bush..he takes those three swings/pumps...not trying to open flight path up purposely..would that still be least movement as it is part of his normal thingy...or would you the player have to go the extra mile in showing efforts to make the "least" possible movement..thus meaning no warmup pumps/swings

confusing I know..and not that big a deal..I often miss putts when I have to "swing" through a lil something..IMO it is from wanting to cause the "least" movement so I don't line my putt up as usual

ya get me Josh?

TY

[Josh Connell]

to "choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle"

TY..I keep forgetting that key word..and your after thought of taking extra swings would then not be "least movement"

but what if for example player X always takes 3 warmup swings before he putts/etc..he is in bush..he takes those three swings/pumps...not trying to open flight path up purposely..would that still be least movement as it is part of his normal thingy...or would you the player have to go the extra mile in showing efforts to make the "least" possible movement..thus meaning no warmup pumps/swings

confusing I know..and not that big a deal..I often miss putts when I have to "swing" through a lil something..IMO it is from wanting to cause the "least" movement so I don't line my putt up as usual

ya get me Josh?

TY

I think your practice pumps and incidentally causing movement with them is okay provided the result isn't that you end up clearing a path for your throw. Basically, the leaves/branches/etc that you are brushing into with your practice swings have to be there to brush into with your actual throw also.

If you can't do your practice routine without knocking a leave or two (or more) off the branch, you shouldn't do the practice routine. Or find a stance that allows you to do your practice routine before you throw.

[Kyle Moriarty]

I know that being on an OB Line is good. I have played in 2 recent tournaments where people have mentioned that being on the line is no good. Was there a rule change recently where there was a change from on the line is no good to now it is good?

[Josh Connell]

I know that being on an OB Line is good. I have played in 2 recent tournaments where people have mentioned that being on the line is no good. Was there a rule change recently where there was a change from on the line is no good to now it is good?

The OB line has been part of the OB area since the 2006 rules update. In order for a disc to be inbounds, some part of the disc has to be touching an inbounds area (i.e. not just the line). Here's a graphic that should cover it...

[Kyle Moriarty]

you got imaged!