Starter Discs

[Sam Henderson]

My friend is ready to invest in his own disc collection. He has been playing for a few months with a 150g Innova DX starter set (Leopard, Shark, Aviar) and then fooling around with some of the extra plastic I have but do not throw regularly (159 blizz champ teedevil, 168 champ valk, 175 champ orc etc). I am trying to tell him that since he cant throw 300ft (I would say he is typically in the mid 200s in an open field) he should not be buying any double digit speed discs but he is hard to convince after getting a taste of faster plastic. Any suggestions for making him see the light and/or suggestions with good first driver plastic? I am trying to sell him on TeeBird/Leopard/Roc/Stingray/Ridge or equivalents from Discraft/Lat64 or more Vibram. Good choices? Where Dave Jackson at?

[Mike Dussault]

T-bird/Leopard/Roc/Stingray/Ridge.

Could be the best starter set combo ever.

[Shawn Mullen]

Stable fairway driver / understable fairway driver / stable mid / understable mid / whatever putter he likes.

[Pete Lauber]

Tell your friend that he needs to learn how to control the mid range and the fairway driver before moving up to the high speeds. The best advice I ever got was to take a couple of mid range discs (Buzz or Roc) and a putter and play for a year with just those discs. It took me a year to really learn the midrange and then learning to throw a fairway driver (Tee Bird) became much easier. Tell your friend not to fake the funk on a nasty dunk. Current bag contains the following: Tee Bird, TL, Leopard, Roc, Buzz, Sidewinder and aviar putter.

[Scooter Feely]

Your friend should focus on the discs in his starter set; it is a good set. If he insists on adding to it, either the teedevil or valk are reasonable choices. Remind him that a lot of pros use the leopard and you can play an entire round with just the shark or the aviar.

[Sam Henderson]

What about weights? It took me awhile to figure out weights that I liked. Should you start on the lighter side and work up for just go for what is likely to be your endgame for your size/build?

[Mike Dussault]

I have always used Max weight discs. In some ways easier to control then the lighter plastic.

[Steve Dodge]

Valarie Jenkins tells a story where her dad would not give her a second disc until she could control her first disc (an aviar) well. I think that is a great story which many newer players have trouble understanding. If they want to give Vibram a try, the Summit and Ibex are where I would start them. Realistically though, imo they should stick with the Aviar and Shark (because they already have them) until their form and distance is dialed in a bit more.

[Karl Molitoris]

Prob'ly gonna take a whole lot of @#$% for what I'm about to say but it's what I believe...

There is nothing wrong with your friend playing with warp speed drivers. There, I said it. Now let me preface it with provisos:

He DOES 'work' on correct technique using understable, slower discs more than he does use speed 47 drivers. This can be done in field practice, etc.
He DOES work on more shots than just a backhand...and thus overstable discs will be used quite a bit.

I say this because of the "all work and no play makes Johnny a dull boy" premise. Remember, he'll want to throw - especially when he's playing with (against) you - something that kind of keeps up with the Jones...'tis only human nature. So don't wreck his fun or you'll (without really knowing it) stifle his drive (no pun intended) and you'll maybe end up losing a dg buddy. Let him taste the big dog...but always let him know that technique will win out in the end.

As for what Steve just wrote...it's a nice story but understand that Val couldn't have quit the sport even if she'd wanted to ...so doing it THAT way was fine - but most people do NOT have the drive, time, dedication, patience, family for such to work!

Karl

[Mike Dussault]

disagree a lot with Karl here. It is fun to play well, not fun to chase high speed drivers deep into the woods.

[Karl Molitoris]

I'm just coming from the "fun first" side of the road Mikey. Since he's only been playing a couple of months, let him 'chase distance'...and actually it's virtually impossible to get young players NOT to chance distance / their buddy who's been playing longer!
Hopefully he'll see the light and notice that the drivers usually get him in more trouble than not (or at least his slower discs)...but like most 'positions of authority', people will rebel against it (so if you tell him to 'slow down', he'll speed up anyway) .

Karl

[Brad Harris]

I'm with Karl here. Slower speed discs are certainly better for learning and should be used as a practice tool. But on the course, let him throw whatever he wants. If he decides he wants to dedicate himself to improving, have him work in the field trying to maximize slower speed discs.

A lot of people don't have the discipline or desire to really dedicate field time to practice. So they remove the high speed discs in order to force themselves to work with slower speeds when they play. To me, this is not the best way to practice and improve. The course is where you have fun and put all of your skills to the test. The field is where you should be working to hone your skills using different strategies such as throwing mids and putters for distance.

[Tim Carter]

Avoiding high speed discs:

Explain the intended distances that go along with discs.

For example: putters can easily be thrown 150-200 feet (This alone blows the minds of many newbs who for some reason think putter means inside 50.)

Pros can throw rocs 400 plus. And mere mortals can get 300 out of them. Again, many new players just don't realize what these discs can do.

A more hands on way of gettin the "wide rim does not equal big d" point across:

Bring your friend to a field. Have him throw his mids and fairway drivers and lend him a few wide rim jobs (through that in their to see who is paying attention- hi Titan).

Dollars to donuts (whatever that means) your friend will throw his mids as far as the wide rim jobs, and probably easier and straighter.

"So slower discs are easier for beginners to throw greater distances with increased accuracy". Says your friend. Light dawns on marble head.

[Rob Breckenridge]

Hi Sam,
You've gotten some good feedback so far, I share a similar position as Karl (who was either a psyche major in college or is just spot on regarding human nature). Your buddy will want big boy discs, I know I did, and still do. Form and technique are very important but crushing your 1st drive over 300 is cool as well. I would recommend the following.

Dx Plastic: Beast, Valkyrie, sidewinder,

Dx beats ups quick,and is cheap, (think Tully #1, not a place for a beginner to throw 15-20$ discs)

if your friend thows traditional rhbh he will probably do what most beginners do and muscle the hell out of it, disc will hyzer out quick. The discs I named will continue to beat in, loose stability quickly and end up going straighter longer.

Mid ranges, Roc, Buzz, COmet, Pain, Core and Fuse, all great discs, I can throw all these 3oo+ consistently and straight, and my form still needs a lot of fine tuning.

Practice is key, if there is a field you guys can stand on opposite ends and just chuck back and forth. The course is where it all comes together, if there is a local course close by I would advise him to play, ALOT, Be careful,sooner than later he will probably be victorious over you the learning curve in the first year is accelerated, look at how quickly your game developed.

[Steven Dakai]

T-bird/Leopard/Roc/Stingray/Ridge.

Could be the best starter set combo ever.

This is sound advice, Just dump the Ridge for a super soft Warlock.

[Karl Molitoris]

T-bird/Leopard/Roc/Stingray/Ridge.

Could be the best starter set combo ever.

This is sound advice, Just dump the Ridge for a super soft Warlock.

Not directed at you Steve (...nor really at Mikey either...),

MAYBE (always debatable) "sound advice" IF the person is only intending to throw backhands.
Let's see: stable fast fairway driver, understable fairway driver, stable mid, understable mid, stable putter. Hmm, zero discs out of 5 on the left side of dead neutral. Have virtually zilch success with even a moderate headwind much? Remember, we're talking about newbies here! No, they haven't learned to throw hyzer flips yet...let alone into a headwind. Heck MOST people haven't learned how to throw hyzer flips into headwinds! Let's be practical here - and let them have SOME initial success. And don't forget that OHs and FHs WILL require more stability to produce the same shot due to their inherent lack of rpms.

Karl

[Tim Carter]

Some of the best flick artists I know say that learning to flick under stable discs well with control dramatically helped out their flick game. I can't speak for the overhands as I don't cheat.

Just kidding Karl.

[Karl Molitoris]

Tim,

You're right - the art of flicking understable discs WILL help your flick game (and the rest of your game too). But it happens to be one of the hardest shots to master...and thus having a new player start doing that is frustrating at best, downright terrible (for the newbie) most likely. I've been playing 'a while' and it's MY most inconsistent shot (even more so than bh's!). The reason it is so hard is that fh's inherently have the least rpms and thus combined with the wider rims on today's drivers are the hardest to 'pure' (get that EXACT angle of throw to allow the disc to 'do its thing' (turn over / s-out / etc.) before it comes back to earth). Think of intro Biology class, then think of advanced pharmacokinetics...that's the relative difference between doing a consistent, adequate o-s flick and a consistent, adequate u-s flick.

Karl
Ps: Overhands are the easiest shots to throw; o-s or u-s. That's why I can't understand why more people DON'T throw them.

[Mike Dussault]

I always thought the flick generated more RPM's then a BH.

[Karl Molitoris]

fh's are tops for speed, definately; spin, no.

Erin Hemming (CA guy who has the Guiness WR using the Aerobie Ring and has also won the Big D in the Desert) headed up a pretty indepth study (they had these little rpm electronic readers taped onto discs) throwing both bh's and fh's and all the results show that bh's inherently (virtually non-velocity dependent) have ~150% the rpms of fh's. oh's were not tested (but I'd guess they're about the same as fh's).

That being said, a 40mph bh would have about the same rpms as a 60mph fh...but ANY faster shot requires proportionally more rpms just to hold that shot stable (or you crash and burn it anhy). This is the primary reason why bh's fly straighter for a longer time (of that disc's flight). It's all about the spin.

Even though bh's generate more spin, the reason they can't generate more speed (initial disc velocity right out of the hand) is that the moment arm they're being released from is rather small. You release a bh about 1 foot from your chest whereas a fh is released 2 or more feet from your chest (and an oh even further). When it comes to speed, it's all about the lever (length).

In college, I was "jugged" in the mid-80's (baseball) and I was just "OK" regarding speed. The fastest bh'ers in the world are jugged in the high-70's at best - so bh's just can't compete with fh or oh when it comes to speed. But due to the glide factor of discs, bh's make up for their lack of speed (and then some) with spin.

Karl
Ps: Don't challenge anyone to a game of you throwing a baseball at them bh while they will throw one at you fh!

[Steven Dakai]

Good point Karl, it would be helpful to know what type of throws this player will be making. Perhaps a flickable disc would be an asset in his bag.

[Jake LaFlamme]

just throwing the same discs that he is can be helpful
to add to what tim said, if you tee off with putter 250ft, you allow him to really grasp the potential of that putter. as would go for mids to follow. at that point there is no debate with him, that the reason yours went far and his did not, was because they were different discs.

[Pete Nevius]

Some of the best flick artists I know say that learning to flick under stable discs well with control dramatically helped out their flick game. I can't speak for the overhands as I don't cheat.

Just kidding Karl.

I agree wholeheartedly with that idea about flicking understable discs. It's really the best way to learn a good, controlled, flat release. Any sort of anhyzer or off-torque release with an understable disc will flip and roll immediately. I started out flicking by getting a Leopard or Sidewinder to fly straight or with a nice easy S turn. Get that flat or slight hyzer release down before you start moving to more stable discs.

[Sam Henderson]

We went to Pyramids on Thursday and picked up a star teebird and leopard and champion roc3 and panther plus a super soft wizard. He is killing it with them!

[Steven Dakai]

That is the bag of champions right there my friend!