hanging fence ruling at flatrock

[Sean Franchi]

so as you might know there is a hanging/swinging fence at back of green #13 that protects folks putting out on 13 from bad shots on #15. i'm looking to put a sign there so players know the ruling
but it would help if i knew the ruling. any suggestions welcome. thanks

[Jeff Wiechowski]

so as you might know there is a hanging/swinging fence at back of green #13 that protects folks putting out on 13 from bad shots on #15. i'm looking to put a sign there so players know the ruling
but it would help if i knew the ruling. any suggestions welcome. thanks

Rule for what specific circumstances?

[James Lane]

You can define a/the rule about the fence, whatever you like for the most part.
That course specific rule would take precedence over other (rule book) rulings.

Well that's how I see it anyways.

[Josh Connell]

There really is no official rule book ruling pertaining to a fence unless you want to designate one. In other words, the fence is just an obstacle no different than a tree or a bush or a big rock unless you say otherwise. If it's an OB line, OB rules would apply. If it has its own rules, PDGA rules allow for special conditions as long as they don't contradict existing rules. If you just leave it without any rules or conditions, it's just a fence and players have to play around it.

[Ken Gary]

The questions I have seen come up have to do with the fact that the "fence" is hanging slats of wood that can move and that:

1. if you are slightly outside the fence, people want to either move the slats out of the way or extend their arms through the openings and throw with the disc inside the fence
2.if you are just inside the fence, people want to back into the hanging slats and push them back with your body and throw.

I've always played it that you cannot move the slats when establishing your stance - not backing into them when your disc is inside the fence or holding them out of the way when your disc is outside the fence. If you are reaching through and throw and touch the fence and move it as a result of your throw, that is ok. Like to know what others think. Thought we played it like the fence was an obstacle like a tree or bush.

[Tony Ruschioni]

What about when it lands directly under the fence? I have had this happen before and didnt know what to do, so i threw it through the fence like Ken mentioned.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

OK now i get it.

No moving the slats across the support ropes to make a bigger opening. That'd be the same as bending a small sapling behind another tree to get it out of your line, IMO.

Also, If your disc gets wedged between the slats OVER 2 meters then the 2 meter rule should be applied(If Sean uses that rule at Flatrock).

[Troy Dietrich]

Ken plays it exactly as I do. I've always treated it the same as you would a bush or small saplings. If the disc lands under it, you have to reach through from behind to make your putt.

It's much less forgiving than a bush if you land just in front of it though. Trying to putt from 6 inches in front of it, without backing into it is tough.....this wouldn't be an issue with a bush (or a solid fence). Good thing it's a short putt from there.

[Patrick Harris]

Franchi,

If you want to put up a sign to explain the players about this fence, just keep it simple and clear.

"This fence is NOT OB" or "Any discs pass this fence are OB"

Take your pick, I'm fine with either rules you have in mind for your sweet course.

[Titan_Bariloni]

i like what ken says and what josh says about treating as any other course object

franchi put mesh between the slats..up and over upside down style buddy

greg A 2'ed 15 from up against that fence on 1 knee extended out..was sexy for sure

[Doug Callaghan]

Im not positive but i think Franchi can designate it as a casual obstacle which would fall under 803.05 (c) (2). The rule says,

"Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain
relief only from the following obstacles:
casual water, loose leaves or debris,
broken branches no longer connected
to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful
insects or animals, players’ equipment,
spectators, or any item or area specifically
designated by the director before the
round. Obstacles may not be moved if
any part of the obstacle is between the lie
and the hole. The type of relief a player
may obtain is based on the location of the
obstacle and is limited as follows"

So the bolded could apply to the fence if Franchi decides to go that way. If so, (c)(2) allows up to 5 meters behind the disc. Here is the rule:

2) Casual obstacles to stance or throwing
motion: The player must fi rst attempt to
remove the obstacle unless a portion of
the obstacle is also between the lie and
the hole. If it is impractical to move the
obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle
is also between the lie and the hole,
the player’s lie may be relocated to the
nearest lie which is no closer to the hole,
is on the line of play, and is not more than
five meters from the original lie, as agreed
to by a majority of the group or an offi cial
(unless greater casual relief is announced
by the director). Alternatively, the player
may declare an unplayable lie and
proceed in accordance with 803.06.

So up to 5 meters if Franchi designates the fence this way. Unless im totally missing something.

[Josh Connell]

Im not positive but i think Franchi can designate it as a casual obstacle which would fall under 803.05 (c) (2). The rule says,

<rules quote snip>

So the bolded could apply to the fence if Franchi decides to go that way. If so, (c)(2) allows up to 5 meters behind the disc. Here is the rule:

<rules quote snip>

So up to 5 meters if Franchi designates the fence this way. Unless im totally missing something.

First...how old is the rule book you're quoting, Doug? It's at least two rules editions behind the current, since part of a casual obstacle now can be between the lie and the hole. It just can't entirely be between the lie and the hole. Some part of the obstacle has to be on or behind the lie.

803.01 Obstacles And Relief
B. Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the Director before the round. To obtain relief, the player must remove the obstacle if it is practical to do so. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie (unless greater casual relief is announced by the Director).

Franchi can designate it as a casual obstacle. However, the only way in which a player could take relief is if the fence was actually an obstacle to the player taking a stance. In other words, if the disc was directly in front of or underneath the fence such that the player would have to either squeeze between the disc and the fence or stand behind it and poke through it to make a throw. It would not apply if the disc was on the back side of the fence and the player could stand and make a throw without the fence being in the way of the motion (obviously it would be in the way of the disc in flight, but obstacles to flight can't be moved under any circumstances).

Also, it is the nearest lie on the 5-meter line, not a lie anywhere along the 5 meters (second bolded part above). I would argue that, at most, the player could take relief arms-length from the fence but no more. Once the player was arms length away, the fence is no longer an obstacle to his/her stance and I'd say that's the nearest lie. No different than a player taking relief from casual water must take the first dry lie along the 5 meters as the nearest lie.

I'm thinking taking relief that puts you just behind the fence but not close enough to reach through it puts the player at a bigger disadvantage than the awkward stance of poking an arm through a gap in the slats in order to putt. Declaring it casual might not be doing players any favors at all. Of course, they always have the option with a casual obstacle of not taking any relief at all so it's not as though you'd be forcing them into anything either.

[Doug Callaghan]

Ya i thought the numbers on the rule were from an older rulebook. I was just testing you Josh, you passed. Rule is the same i believe though. I think the rule gives franchi some options. The fence could be treated differently than a tree, bush a rock, ect if Franchi wants to go that way. Your right, how much relief would be the muddy part. I could see it varying alot with that fence, whats needed for "in the line of play".

[Troy Dietrich]

You wouldn't be doing yourself any favors taking relief farther behind this fence.

It's only about 8 - 10 feet behind the basket, it's just that it makes it really awkward to make the putt without disturbing the fence when you're up against it or under it.

Here's a pic for anyone not familiar with it.

[Sean Franchi]

treat fence as if it were a live object such as a bush or a tree, if lie is in front of fence you can back into it legally. if lie is in back of fence you cannot disturb fence except through the throwing motion.if your lie is behind the fence but to the left you could theoretically reach your left foot thru the fence slats that are, say, 3 slats left of your disc, then straddle stance and putt without disturbing the fence slats that are in front of your lie.


if the sign said the above would that cover it ?

[Josh Connell]

treat fence as if it were a live object such as a bush or a tree, if lie is in front of fence you can back into it legally. if lie is in back of fence you cannot disturb fence except through the throwing motion.if your lie is behind the fence but to the left you could theoretically reach your left foot thru the fence slats that are, say, 3 slats left of your disc, then straddle stance and putt without disturbing the fence slats that are in front of your lie.


if the sign said the above would that cover it ?

If it's to be treated as a "live object such as a bush or a tree", it is not legal to back into it unless backing into it won't cause it to move or be disturbed.

802.04 Throwing from a Stance
A. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

[Sean Franchi]

Josh,
any suggestions for the sign wording ?

[Trent Solomon]

treat fence as if it were a live object such as a bush or a tree, if lie is in front of fence you can back into it legally. if lie is in back of fence you cannot disturb fence except through the throwing motion.if your lie is behind the fence but to the left you could theoretically reach your left foot thru the fence slats that are, say, 3 slats left of your disc, then straddle stance and putt without disturbing the fence slats that are in front of your lie.


if the sign said the above would that cover it ?

If it's to be treated as a "live object such as a bush or a tree", it is not legal to back into it unless backing into it won't cause it to move or be disturbed.

802.04 Throwing from a Stance
A. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

the rule says least amount of movement and it has always been my understanding that you can move stuff slightly but you cant hold something (like a branch) out of the way

[Josh Connell]

"Fence is a permanent obstacle. It is to be treated the same as a live tree or bush. Players must take a stance that causes no movement of the fence. A stance involving reaching through the fence is allowed if the fence does not move except for incidental contact during the throw."

The last sentence probably isn't necessary unless you want to emphasize that reaching through is legal. I would hope most players would understand that they're not disallowed from doing so just because the fence can't be moved.

[Josh Connell]

treat fence as if it were a live object such as a bush or a tree, if lie is in front of fence you can back into it legally. if lie is in back of fence you cannot disturb fence except through the throwing motion.if your lie is behind the fence but to the left you could theoretically reach your left foot thru the fence slats that are, say, 3 slats left of your disc, then straddle stance and putt without disturbing the fence slats that are in front of your lie.


if the sign said the above would that cover it ?

If it's to be treated as a "live object such as a bush or a tree", it is not legal to back into it unless backing into it won't cause it to move or be disturbed.

802.04 Throwing from a Stance
A. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

the rule says least amount of movement and it has always been my understanding that you can move stuff slightly but you cant hold something (like a branch) out of the way

The only movement allowed is movement caused by incidental contact during the throwing motion. So, for example, your arm could brush a branch and cause it to move as you throw, but you couldn't back into the same branch and cause it to move out of its original position in order to take a stance.

"Least amount of movement" possible is no movement. If a stance is possible without causing any movement, that's the one the player should take. Players are not entitled to a comfortable stance or their preferred stance, just a legal stance.

[Jim Bobka]

Don't forget to add, at the bottom, with asterisk: "Course management not responsible for splinters".

[Rob Walker]

Whatever happened to "fences make great neighbors"?

[rick belhumeur]

Make it simple, put a OB rope under fence & to the side. Behind fence=OB in front of fence 1 meter relief.
C U Soon & I hope to make the cut for next TC season.

[Rob Walker]

That wouldn't be as simple in the snow, unless Sean got one of those "snow-melting" OB ropes. If you are five feet past the fence, at least now you have the illusion that you'll be able to sink your putt. With OB relief, it will only be a seven foot putt and even Adam Dodge can sink that.

[rick belhumeur]

Its 3 season simple then. Rules always get more lax when there is snow on the ground. Thats if Dodge even shows up.

[Sean Franchi]

when are we going to meet Moses ?

[Trent Solomon]

Whatever happened to "fences make great neighbors"?

its actually "good fences make good neighbors" ~ Ben Franklin

[Tim Carter]

It's actually a proverb that dates at least to the mid seventeenth century. Pre Benji. This and many other popular proverbs are attributed to Benjamin Franklin. Probably because he wrote a lot of stuff down so people tend to think its all about the benjamins, baby. Kinda like "you guys are phhhaaaaaaaags, suck my disc" will probably be attributed to Titan by future generations even tho he did not come up with it.

Of course Bobby Frost borrowed the line for the summer time smash hit "mending walls" as well.

[Patrick Harris]

treat fence as if it were a live object such as a bush or a tree

That's good enough explanation.

I would see this fence as a large unbroken hanging branches from the trees that cannot be taken down.

No OB is needed there. Relief can be used.

I'm not sure that this course has been PDGA-sanctioned before. If its not, then we'll need to relax about this rule.

[Titan_Bariloni]

i think I did coin "sux my disc" at least under the usage of "sux" rather suck

phaaaaags is not mine but yinglingalicious is though