802.04 Throwing from a Stance

[Gary Cyr]

D.Putting: Any throw from within 10 meters of the target, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the target, is a putt. Supporting point contact closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc after the disc has been released is a stance violation. The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the target.

There was some confusion on this within a group this weekend. Let me describe the situation.

Player A has a Putt within 10 meters.
The lie in on a steep downhill grade.
Upon release player A feels as if they may fall foward. Rather than do so they step to the side without moving closer to the basket. Player A regains balance after a couple steps and then proceeds to the basket to retrive disc.

Player B calls a foot fault for not maintaining balance.

Player B believe balance must be maintained at the supporting point of contact.

Player A and the rest of the group disagree.

What is the right call?

[Jeff Wiechowski]

I interpret the rule the same as the rest of the card did. He regained balance BEFORE advancing toward the target. The red statement you quoted from the rules says nothing about maintaining balance at the point of contact(marker). I'd think that the player could grab a tree behind his lie, if there was one within reach.

Does a foot fault call need to be seconded?

[Gary Cyr]

The PDGA rules changes for this year stated the the first foot fault violation doesn't have to be seconded. That's part of the problem with the call from Player B. Even if player B is incorrect, is it then OK for the entire group to move on and continue play. Or, should player A then take a provisional and let the TD figure it out?

[Jeff Prendergast]

they step to the side without moving closer to the basket

Yeah, that's not a foul. You can jump backwards if you feel like it. Easy call.

[Matt Aubin]

from the q&a:

"Q:

As I release a putt, I push off from my back foot so that after release I am balanced on my front foot. I typically freeze there for a couple of seconds, then swing my back foot forward and continue toward the hole. Is that a foot fault?
A:

It's hard to say. Your group will have to make a judgment call. To demonstrate "full control of balance" the player must perform some action that breaks up the flow of movement toward the target after release, before proceeding toward the target. Some examples of actions that demonstrate balance might be: (1) a clear pause and display of balance, (2) placement of the back foot on the ground behind the mark, or (3) retrieval of the marker disc. The key to all of those is to show balance and control of your body behind the mark before moving forward. The best course of action is to leave no room for doubt, which is easy to do if you are indeed in control of your body after you've released the putt. "

If player A had his foot behind the marker, and it did not move, and then danced a jig with his 'off' foot but stopped for a second, regains/maintained balance (as you said) and then walks toward the basket, no fault.

IF Player A's foot that is behind the mini, in line with the basket, goes away from the legal area you can stand behind your mini, then that's a stance violation.

Player B is correct in that "balance must be maintained at the supporting point of contact" but in the example given, the off foot not behind the marker can do whatever it wants (as long as it does not pass the marker) while trying to achieve balance... when it does and the player demonstrates that, get your disc and move on.

[Gary Cyr]

Matt,

I still don't see anything in the Q&A that specifically says balanced must be gained at the supporting point of contact. Until further proof is given that shows it must be a the supporting point, I respectfully disagree with your claim that it must.

[Brad Harris]

IF Player A's foot that is behind the mini, in line with the basket, goes away from the legal area you can stand behind your mini, then that's a stance violation.

No it isn't. The rule simply says that balance must be demonstrated before advancing. Moving sideways or backwards is not advancing.

[Matt Aubin]

regardless of any balance at all, the player must maintain contact behind the marker in the "good" zone (in line with the basket, no more than 30cm behind marker I think) in order for it to be a legal putt, period. SO, in order to maintain balance, you MUST have balance on your plant foot behind the marker minimally, because the putt wouldn't be any good even before you tried to maintain balance IF your supporting point behind the marker was 'questionable'.

it's like the chicken and the egg. you can't maintain balance without a proper stance behind the supporting point of contact, because a solid point of contact comes first before balance is even achievable.

two examples:

1. A person putts 'in line' with the basket, right handed, right foot forward behind the marker. they kick back their left foot for momentum on the putt, balance on their front foot in a classic disc golf putting pose. If they stop there, the disc goes in, and they stay on one foot, posed like a statue, I'd call that balance. no need for two feet if they are clearly in control, stopped, and not going forward. For good measure, I'd put my back foot down safely, take a pause, and then walk forward to get the disc.

2. Stuck behind a large bush, a player putts his marker down and places his right foot behind the marker and stretches waaaay out to his left straddle putting. the putt goes in and stops, but in doing so, the player's right foot behind the marker shifts and moves... it is still on the legal "ok' zone, BUT it never stops moving and never shows a 'full stoppage of forward motion to be considered a maintaining of balance." the player never sets that supporting point and stops it's motion, (even though his LEFT foot is solid) and they move forward to get the disc. I'd call that a violation even if their LEFT foot is solid because the stance behind the marker was not solidified to show balance.

Is it specifically written that way in the rules? No, I can't find it either. But I believe that is the intention.

[Matt Aubin]

IF Player A's foot that is behind the mini, in line with the basket, goes away from the legal area you can stand behind your mini, then that's a stance violation.

No it isn't. The rule simply says that balance must be demonstrated before advancing. Moving sideways or backwards is not advancing.

Yes it is. That sentence is about the supporting point, NOT the off foot. If there is no contact behind the marker, as you release the disc, within 10 meters, that's a violation. the sentence you quoted is about violating the stance behind the marker, nothing to do with balance. You can't stand behind your mini, jump in the air, throw the disc and land safely in the same spot and maintain balance... the point of contact violation PRECEDES any ruling about balance.

[Brad Harris]

IF Player A's foot that is behind the mini, in line with the basket, goes away from the legal area you can stand behind your mini, then that's a stance violation.

No it isn't. The rule simply says that balance must be demonstrated before advancing. Moving sideways or backwards is not advancing.

Yes it is. That sentence is about the supporting point, NOT the off foot. If there is no contact behind the marker, as you release the disc, within 10 meters, that's a violation. the sentence you quoted is about violating the stance behind the marker, nothing to do with balance. You can't stand behind your mini, jump in the air, throw the disc and land safely in the same spot and maintain balance... the point of contact violation PRECEDES any ruling about balance.

The point of contact applies at the time of release. But afterwards you can stumble and fall anywhere you want, just as long as you establish balance before supporting yourself anywhere in front of the lie.

[Gary Cyr]

regardless of any balance at all, the player must maintain contact behind the marker in the "good" zone (in line with the basket, no more than 30cm behind marker I think) in order for it to be a legal putt, period. SO, in order to maintain balance, you MUST have balance on your plant foot behind the marker minimally, because the putt wouldn't be any good even before you tried to maintain balance IF your supporting point behind the marker was 'questionable'.

it's like the chicken and the egg. you can't maintain balance without a proper stance behind the supporting point of contact, because a solid point of contact comes first before balance is even achievable.

two examples:

1. A person putts 'in line' with the basket, right handed, right foot forward behind the marker. they kick back their left foot for momentum on the putt, balance on their front foot in a classic disc golf putting pose. If they stop there, the disc goes in, and they stay on one foot, posed like a statue, I'd call that balance. no need for two feet if they are clearly in control, stopped, and not going forward. For good measure, I'd put my back foot down safely, take a pause, and then walk forward to get the disc.

2. Stuck behind a large bush, a player putts his marker down and places his right foot behind the marker and stretches waaaay out to his left straddle putting. the putt goes in and stops, but in doing so, the player's right foot behind the marker shifts and moves... it is still on the legal "ok' zone, BUT it never stops moving and never shows a 'full stoppage of forward motion to be considered a maintaining of balance." the player never sets that supporting point and stops it's motion, (even though his LEFT foot is solid) and they move forward to get the disc. I'd call that a violation even if their LEFT foot is solid because the stance behind the marker was not solidified to show balance.

Is it specifically written that way in the rules? No, I can't find it either. But I believe that is the intention.

The only thing you MUST do at the supporting point is be in contact with it at the time of release.

Intention is interpreted. The rule says you must display balance before advancing to the target. It doesn't say from where as long as it's not closer to the target.

you can't regulate "intention" we can go back and forth all day long. The way the rule is written is pretty clear that balance at the supporting point is not important. If it was this rule would have been clarified a long time ago to include the phrase "at the supporting point".

I'm interested in the input of Chuck and Josh.

[Matt DeAngelis]

The point of contact applies at the time of release. But afterwards you can stumble and fall anywhere you want, just as long as you establish balance before supporting yourself anywhere in front of the lie.

You can stumble and fall anywhere BEHIND the lie, just as long as you establish balance before going ahead of the lie.

[Matt Aubin]

If you can lift your foot off the line of play (within 10 meters) after the disc is released, run back to your car, grab a drink and run back to the mini (but never show balance behind the marker, it's all one motion!) then what the hell is the point of balance, line of play, or markers at all?



To think, all this time i've wrecked my old knees maintaining balance behind the lie because it makes sense. I could've just rolled around on the ground after releasing the disc. Oh well live and learn.

[Chuck Kennedy]

My Demonstrating Balance video examples pretty much cover this discussion:
http://www.pdga.com/demonstrating-balance-putting
You can move your plant foot immediately after releasing the throw to jump or fall over as long as it all happens behind your lie.

[Jeff Prendergast]

The point of contact applies at the time of release.

The only thing you MUST do at the supporting point is be in contact with it at the time of release.

[Jeff Prendergast]

2. Stuck behind a large bush, a player putts his marker down and places his right foot behind the marker and stretches waaaay out to his left straddle putting. the putt goes in and stops, but in doing so, the player's right foot behind the marker shifts and moves... it is still on the legal "ok' zone, BUT it never stops moving and never shows a 'full stoppage of forward motion to be considered a maintaining of balance." the player never sets that supporting point and stops it's motion, (even though his LEFT foot is solid) and they move forward to get the disc. I'd call that a violation even if their LEFT foot is solid because the stance behind the marker was not solidified to show balance.

Left foot solid, not forward of the marker? Full balance, never crossing imaginary line? Then it's all good. Don't call that violation.

[Kenji Cline]

No foot fault on the OP. You can do what ever you want behind your lie after releasing as long as you don't go in front of your lie before showing balance. That means take your putt fall on your ass, roll around a bit as long as you stand up and show balance before you move closer than your lie your good. No violation.

[Mike Dussault]

My Demonstrating Balance video examples pretty much cover this discussion:
http://www.pdga.com/demonstrating-balance-putting
You can move your plant foot immediately after releasing the throw to jump or fall over as long as it all happens behind your lie.

I guess that about settles that.

Remember Matt, it is not your job as a player to discern intent of the rule. Read the rules and follow them based on what is written. If we try to determine some intent or hidden meaning, we all come up with different rules.

[Matt Aubin]

There is no mention in the written rules about whether or not your supporting point can be removed from the line of play after the disc is released. ONLY that it must be on the line of play, behind the marker, WHEN the disc is released. Then you have to maintain balance.

Doesn't that seem like a pretty huge hole in the written rulebook as to what a player can and cannot do immediately after the throw and before they maintain balance?

Your asking the group to go from a hard, set in stone criteria (foot behind lie, when released) to a total judgement call (balance) without mentioning that the first criteria can be thrown out the window before the second judgement call needs to be made.

The rule should read like this:

D. Putting: Any throw from within 10 meters of the target, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the target, is a putt. Supporting point contact closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc after the disc has been released is a stance violation. Supporting point contact may be moved off the line of play, to anywhere behind the rear edge of the marker disc, after the disc has been released, if needed. Then, the player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the target.

The video does clear it up, but it should be in the book.

[Josh Connell]

There is no mention in the written rules about whether or not your supporting point can be removed from the line of play after the disc is released. ONLY that it must be on the line of play, behind the marker, WHEN the disc is released. Then you have to maintain balance.

Doesn't that seem like a pretty huge hole in the written rulebook as to what a player can and cannot do immediately after the throw and before they maintain balance?

I think I see the disconnect here...the rule is not about maintaining balance. It mentions nothing about maintaining balance at all. If you're expecting the player to maintain balance, then yes, you wouldn't want his foot to move off the mark. That's not the case, though.

The rule says that the thrower must demonstrate full control of balance. Demonstrating does not require the player to have balance at the time of release at all. It only requires that balance be demonstrated before the player can advance toward the target after the throw. There's absolutely no reason that that demonstration of balance has to happen on the lie. It just has to happen outside of the circle whose radius is determined by the distance from the target to the rear edge of the marker.

As to the original post, if the player does not make contact within that circle, no violation occurred. One of the things that sucks about the removal of the need for a second on first warnings is that incorrect warnings arguably have to stand. I disagree with that interpretation but it certainly has merit as the rules are written. I hope the PDGA makes an official clarification such that an erroneous call like this can be retracted by the calling player, especially in cases where the person calling the violation has the rule wrong to begin with.

[Gary Cyr]

There is no mention in the written rules about whether or not your supporting point can be removed from the line of play after the disc is released. ONLY that it must be on the line of play, behind the marker, WHEN the disc is released. Then you have to maintain balance.

Doesn't that seem like a pretty huge hole in the written rulebook as to what a player can and cannot do immediately after the throw and before they maintain balance?

I think I see the disconnect here...the rule is not about maintaining balance. It mentions nothing about maintaining balance at all. If you're expecting the player to maintain balance, then yes, you wouldn't want his foot to move off the mark. That's not the case, though.

The rule says that the thrower must demonstrate full control of balance. Demonstrating does not require the player to have balance at the time of release at all. It only requires that balance be demonstrated before the player can advance toward the target after the throw. There's absolutely no reason that that demonstration of balance has to happen on the lie. It just has to happen outside of the circle whose radius is determined by the distance from the target to the rear edge of the marker.

As to the original post, if the player does not make contact within that circle, no violation occurred. One of the things that sucks about the removal of the need for a second on first warnings is that incorrect warnings arguably have to stand. I disagree with that interpretation but it certainly has merit as the rules are written. I hope the PDGA makes an official clarification such that an erroneous call like this can be retracted by the calling player, especially in cases where the person calling the violation has the rule wrong to begin with.

Which brings me back to the 2nd part of the question.

Since the group has overruled the incorrect call can they just move on from there. Or, do you feel that a provisional must be played and then have the TD decide?

[Todd Lapham]

There is no mention in the written rules about whether or not your supporting point can be removed from the line of play after the disc is released. ONLY that it must be on the line of play, behind the marker, WHEN the disc is released. Then you have to maintain balance.

It doesn't need to be written that you can move your foot after you release a disc, lol. Are you supposed to just stand there for eternity after you putt? Also, it doesn't mention you have to maintain balance, you must simply show balance before moving forward.

[Bobby Direnzo]

Ill be reading up on this before the weekend! I might have a copy of the rules also!!

[Bobby Direnzo]

Here is a situation I have heard about..

Player A is within the circle. He takes a putt and as soon as the putter hits the chains he runs towards the basket to retrieve his disc. Doesnt the disc need to come to rest in the basket before player A can advance to get his disc? Would that be called a foot fault, not mataining balance until rest?

[Josh Connell]

Here is a situation I have heard about..

Player A is within the circle. He takes a putt and as soon as the putter hits the chains he runs towards the basket to retrieve his disc. Doesnt the disc need to come to rest in the basket before player A can advance to get his disc? Would that be called a foot fault, not mataining balance until rest?

What happens to the disc is irrelevant once it leaves the player's hand and "maintaining" balance is not the objective required by the rule. Here's the rule...

802.04 D. Putting: Any throw from within 10 meters of the target, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the target, is a putt. Supporting point contact closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc after the disc has been released is a stance violation. The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the target.

"The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the target." There is no mention of the disc other than it must be released (i.e. thrown). There is no mention of maintaining anything. There is no mention of any time component either (waiting for it to come to rest, waiting X seconds, etc). If the player can sufficiently demonstrate full control of balance before the disc comes to rest, then he is free to advance toward the target before it comes to rest. If he loses his balance during/after the throw, but falls backwards or sideways, he's still legal as long as he does not make contact with the playing surface between the marker and the target until he establishes/demonstrates balance.

[Gary Cyr]

Josh,

Let me run this one by you. Player A calls a falling putt on Player B. Player A's interpretation of the falling putt rule is incorrect and player B did not actually commit a falling putt. Since the call doesn't have to be seconded can the remaining players overrule that call by player A. What is player B recourse if the other players didn't see the supposed infraction

This has happened to me because player A doesn't understand that stepping sideways to capture and display balance is not a falling putt (as long as you've not contacted the ground ahead of your mini). As you know, display of balance does not have to take place at the exact contact point behind your mini.

[Josh Connell]

I'd say calling a violation based on a non-rule or a misinterpretation of a rule in which no actual violation took place shouldn't stand. And if after having the rule explained properly (this is where the group, witness to the "violation" or not, can be of help) the calling player understands he got it wrong and retracts the call, then the whole thing should be handled within the group and the call dropped.

However, the rules don't include anything about nullifying a call after it's been made when there is no requirement for any kind of confirmation from a second party. So officially, there's really nothing that can be done in the moment if the calling player refuses to be corrected or insists that the call stand anyway, and Player B would have to re-throw the shot with a warning.

In that case, what I would do if I were Player B would be to insist that the re-throw be thrown as a provisional, and then I'd finish out the hole from both resulting lies if necessary. Then I'd take the issue to the TD after the round for a ruling. And I'd do this even if the resulting score in either case is the same, because my goal would be to educate Player A on the correct rule/interpretation as much as getting the call correct. Not to mention, if I was called later in the round on a legit violation, having the incorrect call reversed would revert the second violation into a first and thus remove the penalty from my score.

So you go to the TD and explain what happened including having Player A explain exactly what he saw and what he saw as the violation (I'd have had him do this for the whole group on the course too). If it's truly a matter of him misunderstanding the rule, then his and your description of the "violation" should be the same and the only he said/he said dispute is the interpretation of the rule, which the TD can easily address.

This is one of the many flaws in the current incarnation of the stance rule. The removal of requiring a second without having some sort of language to negate a false/incorrect call is just asking for trouble. Kinda surprised it hasn't happened more often given how many misinterpretations and misunderstandings there are about the rules. Or maybe they are just being resolved on the spot as I described initially.

[Bobby Direnzo]

Josh your statement below.. Define comes to rest. Is that once it hits the chains or when it lands in the basket and there is NO movement to the disc?

"If the player can sufficiently demonstrate full control of balance before the disc comes to rest,"

[Josh Connell]

Josh your statement below.. Define comes to rest. Is that once it hits the chains or when it lands in the basket and there is NO movement to the disc?

"If the player can sufficiently demonstrate full control of balance before the disc comes to rest,"

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE DISC IS DOING WITH REGARD TO DEMONSTRATING BALANCE.

Disc at rest or not, balance is paramount before any advancement can be made.

You can throw the disc 200 feet straight up in the air, stand still long enough to demonstrate balance behind your mark, run to the basket and stand right next to it before your disc comes crashing to the ground and be perfectly legal. The location and status of your disc is not one bit relevant to whether you commit a foot fault or not.

[Bobby Direnzo]

Josh your statement below.. Define comes to rest. Is that once it hits the chains or when it lands in the basket and there is NO movement to the disc?

"If the player can sufficiently demonstrate full control of balance before the disc comes to rest,"

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE DISC IS DOING WITH REGARD TO DEMONSTRATING BALANCE.

Disc at rest or not, balance is paramount before any advancement can be made.

So I can take a putt at 25ft and show balance once it leaves my hands and just before it hits the chains or just as it hits the chains I can start running to the basket even though I dont know if it will stay or pop out and that woudnt be a falling putt? The rule is messed up if thats the case. Then what does a falling putt even mean then, i know its to control balance inside 10M but for that isntant, I wouldnt call that control by any means.