Rules for best shot doubles

[Brad Dahle]

We will be having our yearly FDR doubles soon, so this question is mostly for that tourney. But I saw something during our weekly doubles the other day that bothered me, and I brought it up after the other team threw. Not to bust balls for that particular round, but to understand for our tourney or others we may play in.

Player A has landed just on the closer to the basket side of a gulley. At this course we always allow casual relief behind these as a safety. The other team offered player A to take relief and mark behind it. He decided not to, marked the disc where it laid and made his shot. Without saying a word, his partner backed up and threw his shot from behind the gulley with no marker at all on the ground. I told him that he could not do this, and he said it was a safety thing.

The rule I would like to know is not specific to that instance of relief, but this: I assumed that once a player on a doubles team marks a lie for the next shot, then under no circumstances can his partner shoot from anywhere else but there. Many other times i have also seen this: Player A walks up and shoots from where the thrown disc lands on the ground. His partner then comes up and either proceeds to put a marker down and make his shot, or flip the disc and shoot. Both of those then have the team shooting from a different spot.

Okay thanks if anyone can set us straight.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Assuming Player A did not hole out the shot, Player B must play from the same lie as Player A. However, the Best Shot rules do allow the partner to play from their lie (or another legal lie such as behind the gully) if the team declares Player A's original lie "the wrong lie". In that case, where Player B's disc lands must be used in the event that shot is not holed out, even if Player B's disc rolls down the hill or OB. Player A's shot has been canceled with the wrong lie declaration. PDGA Doubles Rules: http://www.pdga.com/rules/doubles

[Jeff Prendergast]

Gotcha. 1st guy missed the shot. Partner shoots from another place. Somewhat analogous to flipping the disc after your partner shot from behind it, so my guess is he can't do it, but I'm guessing.



Here are 2 things that I think I know about doubles golf:

-If the 1st player throws from an unmoved disc, then the partner cannot move the disc (flip or put mini) when it's his/her turn.

-If we decide to throw from my disc, and we throw a shot, we can still throw the 2nd shot from your disc instead, but our team has to take the 2nd shot no matter what. . <---edit: This is what Chuck is talking about. I don't think you need an actual reason.

[Brad Dahle]

Sorry I was not clear when I said player A made his shot - he did not hole out on that shot.

[Brad Dahle]

Assuming Player A did not hole out the shot, Player B must play from the same lie as Player A. However, the Best Shot rules do allow the partner to play from their lie (or another legal lie such as behind the gully) if the team declares Player A's original lie "the wrong lie". In that case, where Player B's disc lands must be used in the event that shot is not holed out, even if Player B's disc rolls down the hill or OB. Player A's shot has been canceled with the wrong lie declaration. PDGA Doubles Rules: http://www.pdga.com/rules/doubles

Chuck could you give me an instance where player A's lie would be the wrong lie please?
Thanks

[Chuck Kennedy]

The rule came about when Player A perhaps stood behind a disc or mini of a player on the other team and made a throw. Or maybe they accidentally made a throw behind their disc they set to the side of their mini. In singles that would be a penalty. But in best shot, the partner has the chance to throw from the correct lie. Once this rule was formalized, the extended interpretation was the team could negate Player A's throw by declaring it was from the wrong lie so Player B could throw from their lie, with the recognition that they had to live with the result of Player B's throw.

[Brad Dahle]

Got it thanks Chuck.

[Mike Dussault]

Does this mean if Player A putts and misses, player B can then choose to putt from the other location?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Yes. But if Player B also misses and rolls farther away than where Player A's disc landed, they have to use Player B's lie for the next putt no matter what happens.

[Patrick Harris]

Does this mean if Player A putts and misses, player B can then choose to putt from the other location?

Yes. But if Player B also misses and rolls farther away than where Player A's disc landed, they have to use Player B's lie for the next putt no matter what happens.

If ONLY the Player B did NOT pick up his disc. Meaning leaving the "B" disc there until Player A miss his putt or makes bad drive.

Is that correct, Mr. Kennedy?

[Chuck Kennedy]

I'm thinking the rules would allow the group to determine the approximate lie for Player B per 800.02 and 802.03F.

[Brad Dahle]

Okay so I am reviving this one after a team challenge this weekend.

Going back to Chuck's comments that a team may play from player B's lie after player A throws from player A's lie - but only if it is declared that player A's lie was declared the wrong lie.

Can you clarify though that if the team decides that player B now just would rather make their shot from their own lie, not player A's - can they just arbitrarily do this?

And if the answer is yes, then I understand that they have to hole out from player B's lie no matter what.

At TC yesterday, a doubles team did just this 2 or 3 times. I did not bring it up or call them on it at all - I only did when they both still thought they could then take the next shot from 2 different lies. I knew they had to stick with one or the other.

[Bill Bertera]

And if the answer is yes, then I understand that they have to hole out from player B's lie no matter what.

they don't have to hole out. they have to take the result of player B's shot after they nullify Player A's by calling it the "wrong lie". You would be correct to tell them they can't shoot from 2 different lies, and then take whichever one was better. If shooting from 2 different lies they have to take the result of the 2nd shot.

I can't speak to the legitimacy of calling player A's shot the "wrong lie" to get to switch lies. It sounds like its been acknowledged that is acceptable practice.

[Josh Connell]

And if the answer is yes, then I understand that they have to hole out from player B's lie no matter what.

they don't have to hole out. they have to take the result of player B's shot after they nullify Player A's by calling it the "wrong lie". You would be correct to tell them they can't shoot from 2 different lies, and then take whichever one was better. If shooting from 2 different lies they have to take the result of the 2nd shot.

I can't speak to the legitimacy of calling player A's shot the "wrong lie" to get to switch lies. It sounds like its been acknowledged that is acceptable practice.

Calling it the "incorrect lie" would be more accurate than "wrong lie", but doing so is what allows the team to move to player B's lie in the first place. Though technically, they are not forced to take the result of player B's throw. Player A could also throw from the "correct" lie, but since they declared player A's first throw to have been from a "wrong/incorrect lie", there would be a penalty attached to player A's new throw for the misplay (803.03 G).

[Brad Dahle]

Let's take the incorrect lie off the table because there was no such issue. This team simply did not agree on which was the better lie. So on 2 occasions they each played from their own.

[Josh Connell]

Let's take the incorrect lie off the table because there was no such issue. This team simply did not agree on which was the better lie. So on 2 occasions they each played from their own.

They aren't allowed to do that, at least not in a way that gives them the choice of which result to play from next. The point of best shot doubles is for the team to play from the same lie each time (two players playing as one). The only loophole, for lack of a better term, is to invoke the incorrect lie section of the misplay rule and effectively negate the result of the throw from the first lie used.

[Troy Dietrich]

If you want to read more on this subject, I also brought up this exact same thing a couple of years ago on the Team Challenge Board.

http://newenglandteamchallenge.com/view ... 717#p18779