Shovel your lie

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Running a PDGA competition endowment program event and was wondering if it's against the rules to shovel your lie on the fairway?

[Matt DeAngelis]

You mean to get down to bare ground? Of course it is!

[Chuck Kennedy]

You can shovel all you want in your stance and run-up but it has to be done before your turn plus whatever time you have to do it when it's your turn to throw within 30 seconds. I believe snow would legitimately be considered a casual obstacle that could be moved as an obstruction only in your stance and run-up. But it is not classified as casual water for the purposes of gaining relief by moving your lie.

[Josh Connell]

QA 4: Ice and Snow
Q: Does the term "body of water" in the casual relief rule include bodies of ice and snow?
A: No. "Casual water" as listed in the rules is water as it's commonly understood, in its liquid form. The rules do not grant casual relief from snow, ice, or even steam should you encounter it. Applicable Rules: 803.01 Obstacles and Relief.

That's the applicable rule/interpretation. Not sure that a distinction can be made between snow as a casual obstacle that can be moved versus one you can take relief from. A casual obstacle is a casual obstacle, IMO. Either you can move it and/or take relief from it or you can't. I read that to say you can't.

However, I think this particular PDGA rule/interpretation has no basis in reality. If snow and ice isn't to be classified a casual obstacle, then that would make it permanent and therefore illegal to move or disrupt. Yet how can you step foot on a snowy fairway, let alone take a stance or make a throw without disrupting or changing the position of any snow? IMO, snow and ice should be considered extensions of casual water, if not for the practicality of it, but for the safety factor as well. According to the PDGA rules, you can't take relief from a patch of ice. Makes no sense.

[Chuck Kennedy]

I believe TDs can identify patches of ice (sheets of ice would not make sense) as a special condition and allow LOP relief with no penalty. Remember that you can put down a pad/towel on your lie these days. Get a pad with some sort of spikey surface on one side that might grip the surface a little better.

[Mike Dussault]

Years ago I carried a car mat during the legendary "Frozen Fruits Tournament". It worked well for those icy slippery lies.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

QA 4: Ice and Snow
Q: Does the term "body of water" in the casual relief rule include bodies of ice and snow?
A: No. "Casual water" as listed in the rules is water as it's commonly understood, in its liquid form. The rules do not grant casual relief from snow, ice, or even steam should you encounter it. Applicable Rules: 803.01 Obstacles and Relief.

That's the applicable rule/interpretation. Not sure that a distinction can be made between snow as a casual obstacle that can be moved versus one you can take relief from. A casual obstacle is a casual obstacle, IMO. Either you can move it and/or take relief from it or you can't. I read that to say you can't.

I kinda agree but....

But what if a player uses his boots to kick an area clear of snow? Could this be called as a rules violation? I've seen people kick leaves aside to get a solid plant on the ground.

..... i'm thinking my ruling should be "no shovels" primarily because I can't tell everyone that they can bring a shovel now that its the 11th hour.

[Matt DeAngelis]

However, I think this particular PDGA rule/interpretation has no basis in reality. If snow and ice isn't to be classified a casual obstacle, then that would make it permanent and therefore illegal to move or disrupt. Yet how can you step foot on a snowy fairway, let alone take a stance or make a throw without disrupting or changing the position of any snow? IMO, snow and ice should be considered extensions of casual water, if not for the practicality of it, but for the safety factor as well. According to the PDGA rules, you can't take relief from a patch of ice. Makes no sense.

This brought up a thought that I had regarding playing in snowy conditions. Playing a course with a decent grade on some greens always brings into the thought of a disc sliding along the top of a hard crust snow pack. We've also all surely witnessed one player's disc sliding and stopping in a footprint in the snow, while another somehow misses every footprint en route to a 40 ft downhill slide resulting in a difficult par putt where if you miss and hit cage or chain out could be right back where you started from, or worse, the disc slides further down the hill than the previous slide and you end up with a 55 ft uphill putt that if you miss could slide...getting sidetracked.

Are you allowed to deliberately create a break in the snow so that slides only travel a certain distance? Example being I have a 40 footer with a negative slope green behind the basket. Can I walk past the pin and mark a snow break path behind the pin to stop my disc from potentially sliding further down the hill? The only difference between what I described and a footprint from a previous player is the deliberate nature of the action.

If this was done prior to the event starting, does that have an impact on the ruling.

[Josh Connell]

However, I think this particular PDGA rule/interpretation has no basis in reality. If snow and ice isn't to be classified a casual obstacle, then that would make it permanent and therefore illegal to move or disrupt. Yet how can you step foot on a snowy fairway, let alone take a stance or make a throw without disrupting or changing the position of any snow? IMO, snow and ice should be considered extensions of casual water, if not for the practicality of it, but for the safety factor as well. According to the PDGA rules, you can't take relief from a patch of ice. Makes no sense.

This brought up a thought that I had regarding playing in snowy conditions. Playing a course with a decent grade on some greens always brings into the thought of a disc sliding along the top of a hard crust snow pack. We've also all surely witnessed one player's disc sliding and stopping in a footprint in the snow, while another somehow misses every footprint en route to a 40 ft downhill slide resulting in a difficult par putt where if you miss and hit cage or chain out could be right back where you started from, or worse, the disc slides further down the hill than the previous slide and you end up with a 55 ft uphill putt that if you miss could slide...getting sidetracked.

Are you allowed to deliberately create a break in the snow so that slides only travel a certain distance? Example being I have a 40 footer with a negative slope green behind the basket. Can I walk past the pin and mark a snow break path behind the pin to stop my disc from potentially sliding further down the hill? The only difference between what I described and a footprint from a previous player is the deliberate nature of the action.

If this was done prior to the event starting, does that have an impact on the ruling.

I would think if the act is done prior to the event, there's no ruling to make. Everyone's getting the benefit and how would you penalize someone prior to the tournament beginning?

As to something happening during the round, I'd say intent and timing would have to be taken into account. Footprints caused by players simply walking the course, walking up to the basket to retrieve their putt, etc can't be helped. Players later in the round getting the benefit of footprints is luck of the draw no different than if a wind kicks up in the middle of the round and some players have to play the water carry hole into the wind when the first groups got through it in calm conditions.

Intentionally running ahead to break up the snow would definitely be against the spirit of the rules. I'd say it is against the letter of the rules, too. The applicable rule would be the obstacle rule. You're not allowed to move anything that's in front of your lie. You aren't allowed to go up and move a stick or a rock from under/near the basket in snow-free conditions, so I would argue you can't run up and stomp down or break up icy snow either.

I think it's the responsibility of the player to account for the possibility of the disc sliding/rolling away with how they throw the shot. They shouldn't be looking to manipulate the course to benefit themselves.

[Chuck Kennedy]

[Jeff Wiechowski]

My question was more along the lines of someone shoveling a 10ft strip BEHIND their lie for a clean run-up on the fairway. Someone asked if they could bring a shovel along with them for the round.

[Chuck Kennedy]

I tossed a Condor in my bag to help scopp out snow from my stance (only behind my lie).

[Dave Jackson]

Hey Chuck!
My buddy was watching a tv program on local cable access and said it was a DG tourney from many years ago, in Ohio I believe.
I asked about any familiar names and he rattled off a few.
One was Chuck Kennedy. I described you as the PDGA rules guru and long time DG/pdga supporter.
Wish I saw the video. Disc golf probably as it was meant to be.....

[Chuck Kennedy]

I wonder if it was the video clip from last year's Pro Worlds? They had a clip of the Sr GMs in the opening round at Worlds in the monthly video Joe Wander supplies to cable outlets maybe 2-3 months ago. Otherwise, it might have been the Brent Hambrick NT in Columbus, OH when I was a marshal several years ago.

[Dave Jackson]

I'll ask my bud.
In any case, he said it was awesome to watch.

[Joe Wander]

I wonder if it was the video clip from last year's Pro Worlds? They had a clip of the Sr GMs in the opening round at Worlds in the monthly video Joe Wander supplies to cable outlets maybe 2-3 months ago. Otherwise, it might have been the Brent Hambrick NT in Columbus, OH when I was a marshal several years ago.

And Chuck just owned it for the camera at Worlds. Caught him making sweet deuces on red #10, blue #13, blue #17. SGMs featured briefly in #56 (Nov. '13) and more fully in #57 (Jan. '14).

Lots of stations in NEFA land carrying the shows (mostly downloaded from PEGmedia.org), leaving me curious as to where this viewer happens to live.

Thanks to Chuck for bringing Disc Golf Live to his local station.

Masters division coming up in March show.

Joe

[Dave Jackson]

I know my bud lives in Holden, MA.

I asked him to tape it if he saw it again, but he was out of VCR tapes. Lol b

[Joe Wander]

Thanks, Dave. Holden Community TV (ch 13) is the station, they've been carrying DGL for the past year or so, usually several times a week. It was #57 your pal saw. If there's a station in your town, chances are DGL will play there as well, it would probably take just a little initiative by a local resident.

My shows are also viewable on Youtube, if you don't want to wait for him to get his VCR up and running

Best regards,

Joe

[Dave Jackson]

That's awesome Joe!!!
I saw my bud yesterday and he said it was sooooo cool to watch.
This guy doesn't have a computer or smartphone. He has been playing DG since the 80's and was all excited to tell me he remembered the event was from Lemon Lake.
He was also so excited to see coverage of a European event Nikko was playing in. He was surprised to see pro's from the US traveling all the way to Europe to compete in DG.

I'll be contacting the West Boylston powers that be and request some of your videos on our ch. 13.

Keep it up and sorry for the thread hijack.

Back to plowing your lie before you throw questions.
Right now, shoveling wouldn't cut it, too much snow. Lol.

[Joe Wander]

Sounds great, Dave. If station folks want program files on DVD, let me know and I can add you to my mailing list (or send them directly to the station folks, if desired). Otherwise, DGL program files can be downloaded (I cover the costs) from PEGmedia.org, if you're up for that modest technical challenge. Quick tour of the station's website suggests resident submitted shows are indeed an option, so its just a matter of getting on board with the station folks, paperwork, etc.


My apologies about the hijack, too.

No shoveling your lie around here, we've had our first warm weather in six weeks and conditions should be nice and crusty out there now. Seasonal chaos.

Best regards,

Joe