Division selection...

[Dave Jackson]

When choosing a division to compete in at a tournament, what are some of the motivating factors that make you choose said division?

I've been running events for years now and I can't for the life of me understand some of the decisions made by players when choosing a division to play in.
Furthermore, I find it laughable when a TD allows players to play in divisions that are not appropriate, regardless of rules or ratings.

So, what motivates a player to play against competition they have no chance of winning against? Also, what motivates a player to play against other players that are no competition?

In order to make our events better, an understanding of these motives and decisions should make for better events at our place (Maple Hill).

Discuss.

[Dave Jackson]

I can start by saying I play MPO because I want to play against the best competition available.
That's my motivating factor.

Getting beat by players that are better than me is completely understandable. When I'm beating them, I feel as though I've risen to the occasion to keep up and feel a tremendous sense of accomplishment.


Any others?

[Patrick Harris]

Speaking as a long-time AM player (18 years now, Whoo Hoo!!):

In the past, I'm limited to one choice - AM1

Now, I have two choices - AM1 and MM1

I would play AM1 if there are not enough MM1 players that match my ratings which I'm always under 970 so far.

I don't want to crush the entire MM1 players who just started playing this sports.

But If Bob Kulchuk (yeah, I'm calling you out!) is playing MM1, then I'll challenge him!!

That's my motivating factor to find and challenge the players that are similar to my rating level.

[Dave Jackson]

I like.
I can't wait to be in masters. Then you can beat me.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Or play MPM, Patrick ..........

[M.P. Morse III]

well, at the top of my game, i like to think i can hang with just about most anyone......

but on a rough day, im in the middle of AM.....

i think that's why i didn't play many tourneys this year......

[will plein]

Division should be selected based on your average course score.

I would like to see additional divisions added to the mix.

Intermediant Masters

Intermediant Grandmasters.

Course scores and age considerations. Baby booomers are coming!

[Tony Ruschioni]

When you say Average Course score are you talking about avg score on that course or your average on all courses you play? If you are familiar with the course and have a solid avg you can look up previous scores and see about where you would finish if you shoot your avg. If you've never played the course than avg score means nothing, because you dont have one.

Avg across all courses you play is also an inaccurate measure because there are a wide variety of courses out there ranging in all different pars, these numbers will be skewed for the avg golfer i feel.

As an improving Am2, I decided to move up to Am1 for a couple of tournies in order to see where I stand. I cashed in one and finished middle of the pack in the other.

Honestly the decision to play Am2 for the rest of the year is for the NEFA points series. I am in 2nd in points, prob not after playing up for 2 tournies. But the other players that are at the top have made it clear they are not moving up until next tourney season. So I am going to finish the year out in Am2 competing with those guys in order to take the season standings in NEFA points. If it werent for NEFA points I wouldve moved up to Am1 earlier this season for good.

[James Scanlon]

When you say Average Course score are you talking about avg score on that course or your average on all courses you play? If you are familiar with the course and have a solid avg you can look up previous scores and see about where you would finish if you shoot your avg. If you've never played the course than avg score means nothing, because you dont have one.

Avg across all courses you play is also an inaccurate measure because there are a wide variety of courses out there ranging in all different pars, these numbers will be skewed for the avg golfer i feel.

As an improving Am2, I decided to move up to Am1 for a couple of tournies in order to see where I stand. I cashed in one and finished middle of the pack in the other.

Honestly the decision to play Am2 for the rest of the year is for the NEFA points series. I am in 2nd in points, prob not after playing up for 2 tournies. But the other players that are at the top have made it clear they are not moving up until next tourney season. So I am going to finish the year out in Am2 competing with those guys in order to take the season standings in NEFA points. If it werent for NEFA points I wouldve moved up to Am1 earlier this season for good.

I am with you on this one Tony, aside from the fact that we generally are each others biggest competition I really enjoy playing with you and look forward to battling it out over the next month or so.

For myself personally I had very little experience playing any of the courses in the New England area prior to this season and including this past weekend I had 3 tournaments to finish out this season that I will be playing the course blind at. I have improved significantly over the past couple months and had I played like this all season I would have moved up and taken a run at all the end of season fun for Am1. With super fun crowning events coming for the Dam Series and well as the NEFA points series, I think it would be silly for either of us to not take a fair run at what we've worked for all season.

[John Giampapa]

I remember a quote from our esteemed president Meow...."Play where you're most comfortable"........That is until you're obviously sandbagging.

[Tim Carter]

I moved from Am2 to Am1 before my skill level reached am1. The reason was I quickly tired of playing w people who don't know of or care about the rules or basic etiquette of the game. I suppose I could have taken it upon myself to spend tourney days helping folks learn, but I got frustrated w Am2 players and so I made the move. Now mid level am player...always a couple holes away from brilliance.

[James Lane]

Years ago I prematurely jumped up to Open to compete with the best, and get better.
Donating money was not a concern, getting better was.

Now, I still don't feel I can hang in Open, yet I would not play anywhere else. Still trying to get better and still impressed with the play of others.


Side-thought...
There's too many divisions...

[Pete Lauber]

I moved from Am2 to Am1 before my skill level reached am1. The reason was I quickly tired of playing w people who don't know of or care about the rules or basic etiquette of the game. I suppose I could have taken it upon myself to spend tourney days helping folks learn, but I got frustrated w Am2 players and so I made the move. Now mid level am player...always a couple holes away from brilliance.

Would you be so kind as to expand on the rules and etiquette issues that you experienced. I am an AM 2 player and would love to know what your experiences were.

[Bill Bertera]

I moved from Am2 to Am1 before my skill level reached am1. The reason was I quickly tired of playing w people who don't know of or care about the rules or basic etiquette of the game. I suppose I could have taken it upon myself to spend tourney days helping folks learn, but I got frustrated w Am2 players and so I made the move. Now mid level am player...always a couple holes away from brilliance.

Would you be so kind as to expand on the rules and etiquette issues that you experienced. I am an AM 2 player and would love to know what your experiences were.

the most common am2 breach of etiquette is lack of patience, especially around the putting circle. when all 4 discs are within 50 or so, everyone always seems to run up place their mini and hover over the disc waiting their turn. Sure they stay out of the direct sight line of the putter whose turn it is, but its just as distracting. Until its your turn, wait quietly well behind the person whose turn it is. You don't save any time by putting your mini down while someone else is putting.

[Bill Bertera]

and try to limit your personal experience golf-related anecdotes to 2 per round and when they are relevant to something that just happened and tell them in a way that can be enjoyed by all. any more than that, and you're the dude who tells stories about his throws all round.

[Sean McCabe]

I moved from Am2 to Am1 before my skill level reached am1. The reason was I quickly tired of playing w people who don't know of or care about the rules or basic etiquette of the game. I suppose I could have taken it upon myself to spend tourney days helping folks learn, but I got frustrated w Am2 players and so I made the move. Now mid level am player...always a couple holes away from brilliance.

Would you be so kind as to expand on the rules and etiquette issues that you experienced. I am an AM 2 player and would love to know what your experiences were.

My biggest issue is foot faults in the AM2 division. I end up in a tough spot and always get my foot right in the crap I got myself into. Too many players give themselves and unfair advantage by giving themselves and extra couple of inches to get out of the crap. And players who are in the crap don't realize that they need to release the disc before lifting their foot. So it looks like the were behind their mini but lift their foot well before the throw leaves their hand.

Lastly, run ups in the fairway. People are not even close to their mini in AM2. I specifically choose stand and deliver shots on my 2nd shot most times because a run up is just not going to be accurate from a stance standpoint. Then other players I'm playing with take a huge run up, end up in front of, way behind, or left/right of their mini. That is an unfair advantage while I stand their and get less distance than everyone else just to make sure I follow the rules.

[Tim Carter]

The most frustrating etiquette breaches for me are the obvious ones. Walking ahead of the player who is away and talking/ moving during shots. Also not using a mini/ not marking disc. I know it might be helpful to the community to correct these mistake but I spend enough of my week fighting w people about "rules". Rather focus on my own game on tourney day.

Agreed about patience in the circle. Dude is putting from 40 and two other guys are tiptoeing/ slllowwwwwwly inching, like ninjas, towards their discs in the circle... Just freeeekin stop Nd wait for the putt. Then walk like a normal human to your lie. The whole creeping while someone putts thing is very frustrating.

Forgot the other (admittedly really lame) reason I moved up: I had just got this awesome mystery ranch bag and thought it was too good for am2!

[Dave Jackson]

Years ago I prematurely jumped up to Open to compete with the best, and get better.
Donating money was not a concern, getting better was.

Now, I still don't feel I can hang in Open, yet I would not play anywhere else. Still trying to get better and still impressed with the play of others.


Side-thought...
There's too many divisions...

My guess is, you and I play Open for the same reasons bud
And btw Laner, I've seen you keep up in tournaments quite well over the years.

[Jay Ballard]

My mains reason for making a somewhat premature jump to AM1 go something like this...

1) Short Tee's suck
2) All my friends got better faster than me
3) Playing with more skilled players definitely elevates your game
4) Short Tee's suck
5) The top AM1 and AM2 scores are usually pretty close. If I have a great day, I might as well get all the glory
6) I can tell people that don't know any better "I'm almost pro"
7) I'm generally there to have fun, winning is secondary
8) Short Tee's suck

[Erik Siersdale]

The biggest reason to hold back to moving up in divisions, far less high fives.

[Steven Dakai]

I moved from Am2 to Am1 before my skill level reached am1. The reason was I quickly tired of playing w people who don't know of or care about the rules or basic etiquette of the game. I suppose I could have taken it upon myself to spend tourney days helping folks learn, but I got frustrated w Am2 players and so I made the move. Now mid level am player...always a couple holes away from brilliance.

Would you be so kind as to expand on the rules and etiquette issues that you experienced. I am an AM 2 player and would love to know what your experiences were.

My biggest issue is foot faults in the AM2 division. I end up in a tough spot and always get my foot right in the crap I got myself into. Too many players give themselves and unfair advantage by giving themselves and extra couple of inches to get out of the crap. And players who are in the crap don't realize that they need to release the disc before lifting their foot. So it looks like the were behind their mini but lift their foot well before the throw leaves their hand.

Lastly, run ups in the fairway. People are not even close to their mini in AM2. I specifically choose stand and deliver shots on my 2nd shot most times because a run up is just not going to be accurate from a stance standpoint. Then other players I'm playing with take a huge run up, end up in front of, way behind, or left/right of their mini. That is an unfair advantage while I stand their and get less distance than everyone else just to make sure I follow the rules.

Really good observation! Its a different game when you are playing behind your mini and another player isnt.

I play in the largest Masters division,usually MM1. I also cant justify $50 for a round most weekends.
If we could find a formula that got all the Masters in one division it would be a huge group at every event.

[Gary Cyr]

Division should be selected based on your average course score.

I would like to see additional divisions added to the mix.

Intermediant Masters

Intermediant Grandmasters.

Course scores and age considerations. Baby booomers are coming!

More divisions. That's crazy talk. We already have 11 divisions (Too Many). Most tournaments are 72 players which means if all plaers were divided between divisions you would have 6.54 players per division. Any more divisions and we wouldn't even be able to field 4 somes for every divison.

Competition is about challeging yourself. It's not about finding which divison I can pretend I'm challenging myself in because I'm the highest rated player there.

Intermediate masters and Grandmasters. Challege yourself,..don't wait for someone to create a division so you can win against one other player. Do you realize how many of us Pros could play Pro Masters but don't.

[Dave Jackson]

Bingo!

[Josh Connell]

Either it's an age-based division or a skill-based division. Can't be both. Hence no intermediate masters or recreational grandmasters.

And before anyone chimes in, Pro and Am are not skill designations, they're designations of compensation (pro gets cash, am gets merch). We may have the common view that "Pro" is above "Am" but it really isn't.

[Bill Stewart]

Since tournaments are a rarity for me, I've evolved into playing in the division that has the most cool, fun people I know signed up for it. Got into NH States and signed up for Pro Masters but will choose between Pro GM, Masters & Open based on the same criterion. I accept I'll be donating my $50 most of the time, but at least it'll be to friends. If $50 is the most expensive DG outing, it's most likely still cheaper than the cheapest ball golf outing. It's about achieving the best time & most fun.

[Patrick Harris]

Or play MPM, Patrick ..........

Why?

I think I am AM player for life.

Look at my rating. I have never gone up to an average of 970 or beyond.

If I do play MPM, I will have to turn down cash and get no AM points for it. It's a waste of points and money for me.

How this work if its trophy-only tourney for AMs and I play MPM and turn down cash. Will they exchange it for funny money or something?

If its non-PDGA tourney, then I can able to play MPM and take cash.

We just need more true AM1 players in the divisions to make it solid.

[Rob Walker]

My dad, being 71, doesn't feel like there is a division that fits him. The grandmasters can be 20 years younger. Rec is for people just starting out in the sport. But, like Gary said, 11 is already a lot of divisions in a field of 72.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Or play MPM, Patrick ..........

Why?

I think I am AM player for life.

Look at my rating. I have never gone up to an average of 970 or beyond.

If I do play MPM, I will have to turn down cash and get no AM points for it. It's a waste of points and money for me.

How this work if its trophy-only tourney for AMs and I play MPM and turn down cash. Will they exchange it for funny money or something?

If its non-PDGA tourney, then I can able to play MPM and take cash.

We just need more true AM1 players in the divisions to make it solid.

Was a ploy to get us on the same card, buddy.

[Patrick Harris]

Was a ploy to get us on the same card, buddy.

You can, if you put me with your card in the first round. Will MPM will be cool to have AM1 (or MM1) players in the card? Or it is preferred to have separate Open and AM1 in the first round?

[Craig Cutler]

Skill level is measured by PDGA rating. If NEFA embraced the PDGA rating system, we would have a lot less divisions. Tournaments would not crown 10 winners, some of which shoot the same scores but "win" their chosen division. The last NEFA event I played was forced to offer 10 divisions for 72 players. Take a look, players with similar ratings are spread out in many different divisions. http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/16927