NEFA DISCussion

So I had an interesting one come up over the weekend up in VT.

I'm playing a mixed card in the first round of a tourney - myself in MPO, an AM1, an AM2, and a Rec. Overall, everyone is shooting well from their respective tees, and therefore, not in an overall position to be the "cursing" card on the course. I can remember one person shouting a clear F-bomb after one errant drive earlier, but nothing else that would stick as a memory at all.

However, with about 5 holes left in the first round, that same player on my card who I can recall swearing once earlier, threw a good drive, hit a shortcut lane, and called out "fore". Another MPO player (not listed on the tourney info sheet as an official... for you rules buffs out there) in the group in front of us was waiting for us on our green.

He said he was tired of our groups' constant cursing throughout the round, that the recent outbreak was his drawn line, and as a result was giving OUR ENTIRE CARD a warning and the next offending player would be stroked by him for Courtesy Violation and for each subsequent instance. Since when can you just throw out blanket warnings? If you're in the middle of a course, and you hear something to your left, can you warn the nine holes to your left???

I always thought in order to call someone on courtesy, you had to actually call someone on courtesy. He could've asked who just yelled (at which point the AM2 player would've said "it was me, and I said 'fore' and not F**k"... because it was a great drive which wouldn't warrant such an angry outburst). He could've kept track of the offending player(s) throughout the round. But instead it was just assumptions and warnings for all.

Normally I would've said something, but not knowing the full letter of the law, and also knowing that Courtesy resets after a round (we only had 5 holes left), I decided to let it go. I've played long enough where I know to keep (most) of my emotions in check so I was in the clear. I also know that it's best not to open Pandora's Box during a round by challenging it. I actually pulled my card aside after we holed out (as not to further disturb the hole in progress) and explained to them my interpretation of the rule and that I had their back in any dispute that could come up at lunch. But part of me was definitely irked that someone just "warned" me for something I didn't do... and that definitely stuck with me for the next hole or two.

My questions:

1) Can you assess a blanket warning, or must you call someone specifically out?
2) If you can't call someone out, can you ask the card who just cursed, and MUST the offending player respond?
3) Why can't some people just be rational and approach the group AFTER we holed out and ask whoever was cursing to please stop? Doing that before we all putt... really?
4) Let's pretend the rules were followed and the accuser witnessed the offense & offending player, and then issued the warning. Can this accuser (FROM ANOTHER CARD) actually issue the subsequent penalty stroke if offense is repeated?

Before anyone answers this I encourage you to compare how the Courtesy rules below contrast with the Application of the Rules...
http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/801-general/80101-application-of-the-rules

When reading the Application of the Rules, it sounds like the actual penalty stroke comes from an official or by two players on the same card as the offender, both in agreement about the violation. Nowhere do I see that someone else on another card can swing on in and give someone a penalty stroke... especially me since I'm in his division which I believe provides protection from other players in your division. Maybe a warning, but it sounds like you better know your specifics and not take out your magic want to cast spells on all in the village.

Thoughts???



801.04, C -" Players should take care not to produce any auditory or visual distractions while other players are throwing. Distracting actions include: shouting, cursing, freestyling, striking course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, throwing minis, and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player. Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone in danger of being struck by a disc is not a courtesy violation."

801.04, G - "A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even if from another group, or by an official. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of any type in the same round..."

A couple of things I notice in glancing over the rules:

First of all, the wording in 801.04G seems to trump 801.01E because it specifically mentions that someone on another card may issue a courtesy warning. So in that case, he was correct.

However, 801.04C says that players "should take care not to produce any auditory or visual distractions while other players are throwing." So to say that cursing has been irritating is not actually a courtesy violation. It only becomes a violation when it causes a distraction during his throw. At which point the warning should be called immediately and should only go to the person producing the distraction, per 801.01B which states "Calls must be made promptly."

The only "prompt" call in this case was against the player yelling "Fore," which, by 801.04C is specifically allowed: "Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone in danger of being struck by a disc is not a courtesy violation."

So to answer your questions:

1) You must call out a specific incident and warn/stroke the offender PROMPTLY.
2) If the call is made promptly, you can easily ask who just yelled. That person is issued a warning.
3) I don't have an answer for you there.
4) Yes, the rules do allow a player from another card to call a courtesy violation.

4) Yes, the rules do allow a player from another card to call a courtesy violation.

But is it just the violation for a warning, or ALSO the violation for a stroke??? I don't see where it says someone outside our card (and officials) can issue stroke penalties.

I'd say you most definitely have to call an individual for a courtesy violation. And you have to be specific as to what the violation was. Otherwise, what's to stop players from just warning and penalizing each other for nothing?

I also think the only person who can issue blanket warnings is the TD. I only think that because he's the final say on any ruling made during the tournament anyway. So if he preemptively warns everyone to watch their language, for example, who can argue? He's the guy everyone has to appeal to anyway.

I'm all for following and calling the rules appropriately during tournament play, but the way this guy approached things seems wrong from the start. If there was incessant cursing that was bothering him that much through the whole round, he should have spoken up sooner and in a less confrontational manner, at least initially. I mean, how hard would it have been to do what he did in waiting for the group to approach and politely ask them to keep it down or watch their mouths? If they don't heed the request after that, then you start throwing out the official warnings and slamming the rule book down. But to come storming in out of the blue like he seems to have done...kinda lame.

I think the best way to have handled him would have been to insist he identify who he was warning and why. If he's unwilling to do that, then there's no warning issued at all. If he's really got a problem with that, he can take it up with the TD.

Alan MacLean wrote:

4) Yes, the rules do allow a player from another card to call a courtesy violation.

But is it just the violation for a warning, or ALSO the violation for a stroke??? I don't see where it says someone outside our card (and officials) can issue stroke penalties.

Technically, the rule only says warnings may be issued by someone on another card. But I think this is just poor wording by the Rule's Committee. If you look at the intent of the rule, it's to penalize someone who causes an unnecessary distraction to another player. Often, that player may be on another card, as most players have enough awareness to quiet down when their own cardmates are throwing. So to say that the rule basically no longer applies after the first warning is issued kind of defeats the purpose of a warning anyway. Why get warned if you can't be penalized for repeating the same action?

Brad Harris wrote:

Alan MacLean wrote:

4) Yes, the rules do allow a player from another card to call a courtesy violation.

But is it just the violation for a warning, or ALSO the violation for a stroke??? I don't see where it says someone outside our card (and officials) can issue stroke penalties.

Technically, the rule only says warnings may be issued by someone on another card. But I think this is just poor wording by the Rule's Committee. If you look at the intent of the rule, it's to penalize someone who causes an unnecessary distraction to another player. Often, that player may be on another card, as most players have enough awareness to quiet down when their own cardmates are throwing. So to say that the rule basically no longer applies after the first warning is issued kind of defeats the purpose of a warning anyway. Why get warned if you can't be penalized for repeating the same action?

Not to mention, if a Player A warns Player B from another card, how does he know that Player B hasn't already been warned by his own group? If he has, then Player A's "warning" would have to result in a penalty since it would be a violation subsequent to the first.

Chances have it the fella trying to assess a warning to a card of players, may not be using his best judgement to start with.

Here's a lesson we could all learn in this situation:
Don't bother worrying about what others are doing, concentrate on yourself. You owe it to yourself.

make a shot = i am awesome
miss a shot = someone distracted me

standard