Cash CTP's for AMs

[Titan_Bariloni]

question for AM's and rules gurus

can AM's instead of a funny money payout use remaining money after expenses for cash CTP's within division?

I find it lol to payout 7th place in X division 1 funny money dollar

I would like to see the remaining cash at my upcoming event at RFG as cash CTPS

how do AM's feel about this method?

discuss


edit

low entry fees just over expenses, trophies for winners and left over $$$ cash ctpsfor AMs

[Bill Bertera]

throw the leftover AM entry fee to make the event better in whatever way the TD chooses. As long as there is value for the entry fee in some way (trophies, food, green fees, whatever), then reasonable AMs won't whine. AMs that whine about low or no payouts should move up or shut up, or not play those events.

[Josh Connell]

question for AM's and rules gurus

can AM's instead of a funny money payout use remaining money after expenses for cash CTP's within division?

I find it lol to payout 7th place in X division 1 funny money dollar

I would like to see the remaining cash at my upcoming event at RFG as cash CTPS

how do AM's feel about this method?

discuss


edit

low entry fees just over expenses, trophies for winners and left over $$$ cash ctpsfor AMs

Is it a PDGA sanctioned tournament? If not, who cares? Do what you think is best. If so, it's definitely a grey area.

You have to account for the entire entry fee in the PDGA report. So if there's, say, $5 per player left over after fees, and it's designated as "payout", I don't think it can be returned to the player as cash. It has to be returned to the players in the form of a player pack or merchandise payout based on final standing.

On the other hand, if you were to call the entry fee only the fees and expenses, and the CTP money is an add-on cost (like ace pot typically is), then I suppose you can work around the PDGA requirements that way.

[Titan_Bariloni]

yes non pdga
but nefa

I def think for sure grey area

I like the add on structure as you mentioned

also another TD(jw) mentioned when I asked for some feedback

unless event sells out you would not know what that payout is until math is complete

but you could make them all equal weighted and do math during 1st round so at least 2nd round players would know what the actual amount is

I think this structure would at least encourage players to take care of the ctp flags at end of day as they are worth actual $$$

to avoid BS I suppose a stipulation that all flags must be turned in by X time after 2nd round or they void....to elevate the need to bring them back promptly

IDK just sick of the same ole same ole and want to do something different where possible to break from the current norm constantly repeated every event

[Jeff Wiechowski]

also another TD(jw) mentioned when I asked for some feedback

unless event sells out you would not know what that payout is until math is complete

but you could make them all equal weighted and do math during 1st round so at least 2nd round players would know what the actual amount is

Good TD practice is to have payouts posted before the 2nd round.

[Titan_Bariloni]

yes

I did not post at tully as it was raining and couldn't do math until rangers were back to use their office out of the wind and weather

I like steve d's idea of a td corner section of the board

[Jeff Wiechowski]

I like steve d's idea of a td corner section of the board

Board software doesn't currently support the storing of mutiple file types(PDFs, Excel, JPG, etc). Facebook does so we started a group there. The homepage may be able to support it but i'm not sure how to get that set up.

[Doug Callaghan]

If an ace pot is ok for pdga then a cash ctp is fine also. You just dont count them as part of the prize pool, just like an ace pot.

[Titan_Bariloni]

so along the lines of what josh said and doug echoed

what would be a proper way of pre advertising this to players and to avoid confusion on "payout" vs ctp

"any extra money from reg after expenses will go towards cash prizes in respective AM divisions and there will be NO AM payouts"

anyone care to reword or elaborate more?

what words to differentiate between add on vs payout and technically it would be a "forced" addon rather an option as to me "addon" alludes to a "choice"

would another term better suit then "addon" hmmmmm

[Titan_Bariloni]

also I would think it is safe to assume $10 dollars will cover any expense in entry fee and still allow extra $$$ for CTP's

after
nefa fee
nefa sanctioning fee
trophies
greens fee

edit
not much but if there is 20 in a division and there is 2 bucks left over nice lil chunk for AMs to throw for

[Josh Connell]

If an ace pot is ok for pdga then a cash ctp is fine also. You just dont count them as part of the prize pool, just like an ace pot.

It's not that the CTP is cash that is the issue, it's where the funding for the CTP came from that is potentially the issue.

From the Tour Standards document (footnote #3 under Table 1): "The Amateur Payout % requirement is comprised of both the merchandise prizes paid at the end of the event based on the finishing places of the players and the player packs." For C-tiers, that payout percentage requirement is a minimum of 85%. For B and above, it's required that to be 100% or more.

If the event charges $15 for ams and $5 of that goes to fees (player fee, greens fee, what have you), then at least 85% (assuming C-tier) of that remaining $10 has to be returned to the players in merchandise or event value via player pack, prizes, or trophies. If you don't count the cash CTPs as part of the prize pool, and there are no other prizes given, then there is a significant chunk of money that is unaccounted for.

The simplest way around that is to charge $5 as your "entry" so your fees are covered but there's nothing left over as a "net" entry fee (85% of 0 is 0). Then offer an extra $5 or $10 or whatever optional charge for ancillary prizes (ace pot, CTPs, etc). Those can be paid out in any way the TD sees fit, including in cash.

[Titan_Bariloni]

ok I think I get it now to avoid any pdga rule type issues

so I guess my only undetermined cost is for trophies currently
and the amount per player to cover nefa sanctioning but prob leaning on having that come from greens fees rather the event in general anyways

could that extra "addon" include trophies?

so then the flat rate for fees could be set earlier and that "slush" fund of sorts all be used for what I am trying to go for here...if person opts out they would not be competing for trophy as well kinda thing

that would avoid adding a trophy fee into actual reg fee and then not having that division meet the pre required number for division to include a trophy thus bringing us back to "the pdga requirement of "paying out 85%" resulting in needing funny $$,prizes etc etc

correct?

[Josh Connell]

ok I think I get it now to avoid any pdga rule type issues

so I guess my only undetermined cost is for trophies currently
and the amount per player to cover nefa sanctioning but prob leaning on having that come from greens fees rather the event in general anyways

could that extra "addon" include trophies?

so then the flat rate for fees could be set earlier and that "slush" fund of sorts all be used for what I am trying to go for here...if person opts out they would not be competing for trophy as well kinda thing

that would avoid adding a trophy fee into actual reg fee and then not having that division meet the pre required number for division to include a trophy thus bringing us back to "the pdga requirement of "paying out 85%" resulting in needing funny $$,prizes etc etc

correct?

My understanding is that the cost of trophies is not a "fee" in the same vein as player fees, greens fees, etc, it is part of the net entry fee that goes to payout. So trophy value is part of prize value that goes toward that 85%+ requirement for the PDGA.

But again, if you're not sanctioning with the PDGA, none of this really matters. As far as I know, aside from saying that you can't pay out in cash to am divisions, NEFA isn't nearly as specific with its requirements. I don't think it matters how you slice and dice the math, cash CTPs are probably not the grey area with NEFA that they are with the PDGA.

[Titan_Bariloni]

would be nice to work a different model that does meet pdga requirements though for future events if needed

I also understand nefa is not as X as PDGA is but in general it seems since they adapted no cash to Am's and using pdga payout chart it would lead one to think they desire a similar model

also the trophy as part of the payout structure I understand but for logistic purposes of the prize pool not being compromised to meet sanctioning requirements would be best to have in that add on feature as often it is an undetermined cost until close to the events date

this will also allow players who don't care about the frills of an event and just want to pay the MIN to compete for points/ratings or just enjoy a fun day to do so at a minimal cost relative to most events

sorry if I am complicating things just trying to be clear on options
thanks for any input to the discussion it has been super helpful!!

[Trent Solomon]

You could use the following breakdown (this is based on 50 players and a made up players pack)
Am entry fee $20
PDGA per player -$2
PDGA Ins and sanctioning -$2

Net entry $16 (85% value is $13.60)
Trophy $1.60
AM player pack $10
CTPs/Misc expenses(sharpies, paper, water, etc) $2

This would leave you $2.40 to spend on a cash CTP per player that you could account for in expenses, but don't have to. Just multiply that by however many people are in each division and then you have your cash CTP.

[Doug Callaghan]

confusing but i really think if u just keep it separate your fine with pdga. Have your normal entry fee and throw two jars on a table. One for ace pot and one for cash ctp. Are you guys saying he would have to include the jars into the entry for pdga purposes? That would be weird.

[Josh Connell]

confusing but i really think if u just keep it separate your fine with pdga. Have your normal entry fee and throw two jars on a table. One for ace pot and one for cash ctp. Are you guys saying he would have to include the jars into the entry for pdga purposes? That would be weird.

Titan's question was whether he could do cash CTPs in lieu of paying out funny money. In his original question, there were no separate "jars", it was only the entry fee. Cash CTPs out of that money without any merchandise (in player packs or prizes) is what potentially would be a problem PDGA-wise.

There's no confusion about whether a separate fee/payout for cash CTPs is okay with the PDGA...it is.

[Sean Franchi]

I think the PDGA would be splitting hairs if they were to take issue with some of the entree fee going towards cash CTP's for non pro divisions. I don't think they will do that. TItan, just go for it, cash ctp is different than cash payout, like apples and oranges different.

[Josh Connell]

Figured I'd check in on the topic with the PDGA Tour Manager. My question to him was this:
"Someone proposed the idea of, instead of a player pack or prizes based on final standings, offering CTPs to the amateurs. The catch is that the CTPs would be paid out entirely in cash. The question is whether that would fly in a PDGA event. Would any flags be raised if the value of the prizes and player packs are reported as zero and the entirety of the Am event value comes in the "other" category? Is this a potential loophole around the spirit of the amateur divisions being non-cash divisions?"

His response:
"Well, it is an interesting idea, but it’s not a good one. It isn’t a loophole to get around the tour standards because
1) Although CTPs are indeed ancillary, so they could be cash
2) ONLY player packs and prizes awarded based on the place of finish count towards meeting the amateur payout percentage, so if an event did this it would indeed raise flags as they would show zero payout so we’d suspend the TDs and not allow them to run further events."


On the PDGA TD report, there are three entries that count toward amateur "event value": Prizes, Player Pack, and Other. If there's enough value reported in Prizes and Player Pack to off-set at least 85% of the net entry fees, you're fine. However, if all the value is in the "Other" category, which includes CTPs of any kind (cash or otherwise), then there's a potential problem. So it's not necessarily that the CTPs are paid in cash so much that they alone aren't a suitable one for one substitute for a player pack or prizes in terms of paying back entry fees.

However, if net entries were zero, as in the entire entry went to fees and expenses, with nothing left over to be paid out, there'd be nothing to concern the PDGA. An add-on fee to cover CTPS and such would be a reasonable work-around.

[Titan_Bariloni]

thanks Josh

as I was wondering the official stance of pdga

I am going with

$6 entry fee
covers $ 5greens and $1 nefa fee

with additional option $5 dollar fee for trophy,cash ctps,ace pot

divisions over X amount will be competing for trophy if division does not meet X number the $$$ will roll into cash ctps

a model James B from NH always wanted to try basically a "points" event

but to me it is the old model of DG, the fun model
show up play, have fun, chill with dg'ers,


we shall see how reg goes and see if people like or dislike the low ball entry fee!

edit, the only weird part is if X player wins division but opted out of add on thus defaulting trophy to 2nd place, something I am hoping does not happen and think most will take the add on

[Trent Solomon]

thanks Josh

as I was wondering the official stance of pdga

I am going with

$6 entry fee
covers $ 5greens and $1 nefa fee

with additional option $5 dollar fee for trophy,cash ctps,ace pot

divisions over X amount will be competing for trophy if division does not meet X number the $$$ will roll into cash ctps

a model James B from NH always wanted to try basically a "points" event

but to me it is the old model of DG, the fun model
show up play, have fun, chill with dg'ers,


we shall see how reg goes and see if people like or dislike the low ball entry fee!

edit, the only weird part is if X player wins division but opted out of add on thus defaulting trophy to 2nd place, something I am hoping does not happen and think most will take the add on

$11 entry fee will get 99.99% of people

[Titan_Bariloni]

that is the plan, really want to sell this event out and show the club some much deserved DG love

[Jeff Wiechowski]

Just donate any extra cash to the club for course maintenance /improvements/etc.

[Titan_Bariloni]

the club will be super excited as long as everyone has a great time !

the greens and chicken BBQ will finally help get them a chunk of the basket $$$ back
I told them it may be five years before they are break even with cost of course but after that it is a freeroll and hopefully by then the members will be playing and DG'ers will be joining their many activities so it will just become an added bonus to membership

[Titan_Bariloni]

IMO

I think the players want

PDGA/Ratings
Payouts/Prizes
Players Pack

I have studied events past 2 seasons and that is what seems to be crushing bigger fields

low/no payouts
no players pack
non pdga

seems to not be the current model of the disc population

a huge shout out to any td who has built a great event with a waitlist from the ground up
it's rather difficult nowadays with the many options offered