NEFA DISCussion

This is not an impulse post. We've been thinking about this for some time. The materials will miraculously appear. Of course we're asking skilled individuals personally, and have several key commitments, but we also wanted to open the party to everyone.

Food and drink will also miraculously appear. Membership rewards will likewise miraculously appear.

And at the end we'll miraculously have 18 tire baskets of sturdy design very much like the 18 we made for West Thompson, which got that course started.

It's a deviation from the usual plan. Usually you find a suitable piece of land, get permission to use it, then you design the course and think about fund-raising for baskets.

But it's all power to us if we have the baskets first, so we can say to whatever powers decide how public land gets used, "We can install 18 baskets right phuking now."

Guy with the chainsaw casts the final vote in all course design debates, called it.

Just walked some nice land behind Doherty High School in Worcester, beautiful actually, and already cleared by some superstar who just likes to do it, and it's part of Elm Park proper, the part that nobody ever used before, the part of Elm Park in Worcester that's the big wooded hill -- 35 acres, goes the rumor -- across Park Ave from Elm Park.

Disc golf in the middle of Worcester. That's something that should be treated like it's meant to be. Like it's not just fate it's religion. I said to myself after Barre Falls and West Thompson "One course a year baby."

Was that ten years ago? No matter; the power is back.

Anyway, if you come and help us make tire baskets we'll appreciate it, and it'll be fun AND rewarding, cause there's a course out there waiting for them. Plus, this is something I HAVE to do, even though I still can't make even one tire basket all by myself.

One more course please. Making 18 tire baskets is an important step, though not in the usual chronological order. And these baskets can keep going, once they've been replaced by great baskets, just like at Barre Falls and West Thompson. Both started with homemade baskets, which were replaced with great standard baskets.

People come to me all the time with ideas about courses. I want to have 18 baskets folded up in a little piece of paper in my back pocket.

They'll find a home. Have I dragged out this post enough, beyond any climax? Maybe.

Let's set some ground rules for these not-yet-existent baskets:

Gotta stay together.

Gotta wind up on a course anyone can play.

Gotta go onto a piece of land over 20 acres.

Gotta be "lent" not given, cause if we work this right, this set of baskets could be used repeatedly as the trigger that starts courses. It's all about good management. And luck.

And about being ready to do it. I'm ready. Who else is ready?

Hey Jason,

Haven't we already "been there done that" with this idea of a set of "seed" poleholes???

NEFA had a set of real pole holes to do this with...back in the day...you could even use them to run a tourney at a tempory site...(R.I. States, Cushing Invitational, etc)...

I would like to propose that NEFA consider stepping up and purchasing a full set of matching pole holes to use as "seed"...

This was successfully done with the course at Burgess Park in Cape Cod...


I think that there are maybe two ways to fund this from NEFA...

I have not recieved a news letter in quite a while...

The money not spent on the News Letter...or...

The NEFA Points series kick back $2.00 per player back to the NEFA kitty...

Plus kick back matching $ that NEFA kicks in to the Series to make for a bigger payout for the top players to the kitty...

With out looking at the schedule...there are at least Ten Nefa points series event...Most of these events fill these days... but just for easy math... lets just say that there are only fifty players in each...

Thats an easy $1000.00 donation toward a "real set of Pole Holes"...

I am sure in reality this is a much bigger amount of $...

What do you think of this???

Jason I have one of the tire baskets that you lent to Norm...Not much left of the Particle board.. but a tire and a set of chains with a pipe...Let me know if you would like me to bring you the parts or fix it and bring it to add the new tire set of pole holes...

Thanks,
T.M.DYER

Tire baskets!....that'll never work...


Oh wait a second, see you on the 16th.

southy i am so in! if it wasnt for you fantastic group of individuals who made the west thompson baskets i don't think i would be plying this great sport we all love so much! just let me know what to do and when and i am there.

Wow, I like this.

A few things...

Jason, are you talking about the land behind the tennis courts at Newton Square? It is nice land. I attend fundraiser concerts their in the summer that are put on by a group called "Friend of Newton Square" (I think). I remember one of the guys telling me that there are quite a few different habitats up there that environmentalists may give us a hard time about, but if we collaborate with them in some way they may love the idea, as it will help their efforts as well. I personally would love a course there and would definitely use it.

As far as the baskets I think the tire baskets are good to start courses and see where they go, and THEN use the idea of NEFA raising the money to buy the permanent baskets once it takes off. If you buy the matching pole holes ahead of time wouldn't they just stay at the first course they were used on since they were already great baskets?

Thats funny I was just thinking about putting up a post about the seven(plus the one T.M. has repaired)remaining tire basket's that are here in R.I. .Would you like them to miraculuosly re-appear to be re-furbished and used for "parts",they are still pretty good some of them,I will be glad to return them wence they came or if there is any interest in them would meet up with someone to drop them off-Norm!!

Thank you Seamus, TM, Jeff, Norm and Dennis for your interest and feedback on this endeavor.

Where to start? Norm, yes I want seven tire baskets back right now. I have a place for them -- Treasure Valley Boy Scout Camp. I still want to make 18 new ones, though. What's your phone number so I can send an employee down to pick them up in my truck (or Hoey's truck). Ha ha.

Seamus, very funny. People should know that our tire basket design is from Seamus, who created the Martha’s Vineyard course more than all the people who helped him created the course near the ariport on Martha's Vineyard. They started with tire baskets. We stole the design. I took credit.

Jeff Chauvan, f u you'll be banging Bobby's mom and "forgot and holy crap that happened already?" You're not coming. I'm making the list and writing just your name on it and crossing it off.

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I'm serious given all that I know, and my broad skill set, I could not make one tire basket.

People lacking in one area ALWAYS are strong in some other area. Look at me, I'm amazingly lacking in an enormously broad spectrum of skills. Hire the handicapped. Do it. It works. Hire me, for example, as the guy who makes this 18 basket thing happen, all the way to getting them in the ground. Of course when you look at me and hear me talk and read my posts you think I can’t and won’t do it.

I will.

Very important people are already coming. Important in that they actually know how to build a tire basket.

TM, well, as far as skimming or milking or one buck a head I've learned it's gotta be righteous. Can't charge people two bucks for talking to me, as much as I change life directions with casual comments. Should I charge $3 if I’m really insightful? Another buck if I make them laugh?

I could charge everyone a buck who admits to reading my longer posts, but how to collect?

Traveling NEFA baskets? I dunno. This next set won’t cost anybody anything, and they’ll travel, hopefully within bike riding distance from Pyramids. NEFA is much too big to have one set of traveling baskets. Still, TM, what you’re saying is the essence of my idea.

Traveling baskets that start courses.

As for fundraising, skimming from other sources is hard to justify and figure out. We go whole hog once a year at the NEFA Auction after Pyramids Doubles and wind up giving maybe $400 to each new and improving course or something like that.

But I’ll hit the tennis ball right back into your court – better yet, bounce a Meteorlightball LED Dog Ball – and say why not have 18 tire baskets within the NEFA budget and NEFA lax structure for every single NEFA state?

One thing NEFA could finance is the five or eight hundred bucks in materials it takes to make said 18 tire baskets for each state, and give that money to the one guy in each state that is not only willing to make it happen, is capable of making it happen.

Dennis Parslow, yes of course the problems of an inner-city disc course are numerous and often cannot, despite great efforts, be overcome. Vandalism, multi-use issues, litter. The introduction of the recreational bad element seen at places like Burgess Park.

So maybe that won’t happen, but the ADVANTAGES of an inner-city course would be tremendous. All sorts of people would wander, sometimes stumbling, right into disc golf. Our job will be to stand up to the 16-year-old ruffians breaking bottles instead of cringing in abject terror like the Burgess Park woosyboys.

There are several other opportunities as far as disc golf course land knocking on the door. Treasure Vallen in Paxton/Spencer/Rutland/4th Town can’t remember maybe making up other details like every newpaper article written about disc golf ever. Ask DanO about THAT.

Anyway.

You walk up to a 16 year old punk and punch him right in the nose. What’s he going to do? Uh, call the cops and have YOU arrested. You have to simply get mad enough to not think of the obvious consequences of you going to jail for beating up a teenager.

I say we have to start beating up teenagers right now, ESPECIALLY the ones who disrespect disc golf courses. Screw the law, prison, and all sense of reason, proportion and propriety, and beat the crap out of clueless dooshbag punkass male teenagers.

Especially the guy who threw the bottle and hit Mike Dussault in the elbow. I start to think people who live on Cape Code are, let’s say, leaning ever so slightly toward twisted while barely maintaining a face of semi-normalcy. Then I think of Drew Austin, for whom I reserve my most abusive and direct criticism, for the major fault that is his very being. But always only face to face and never on the Internet like right now.

Then I think of his cohort Chris Irving. And the other Cape Code guys like Josh Rogers, Brian Harrington, Matt Madeiros, Steve Solbo, Todd Lapham. And at least one other really obvious guy I can’t think of right now. Probably the most obvious guy ever.

Honestly, I have more phkdup friends than them, but just a couple. Those guys are sometimes a little too much fun and badly in need of all sorts of therapy. In other words the perfect guests.

So Dennis there is no set spot yet for the baskets, but we’ll make them and in the process, we hope, be an inspiration for others.

And Norm YES YES YES we’ll drive down and get seven slightly weathered tire baskets. And those are NOT part of the new 18, which we hope will at least be fairly identical. Call me and give me your pager and social security numbers.

And to all of you who responded, and who haven’t responded but are going to help, I appreciate it. It means I’m not alone, which is huge.

It’s also a complete winner of a plan, and one with no losers. Keep it coming maybe we can tweak our tried and tested design. The physical world has so many possibilities, some of which some of you understand.

18 baskets. That’s the plan. November 16. Wipe that smirk off your face this is serious.

Can someone post up a pic of these tire baskets? I'm curious to see their design......

Hey Jason,

Do you think much before you type or just start typing and whatever shows up is just... well...in print for the rest of us to read...

I suggested a real set of pole holes for use at temp. tourney sites etc.

You suggested that maybe NEFA could throw up $800.00 per state to have six different sets of 18 Tire baskets...

Let's do some quick math... Six states in New England...

Six times $800.00= $4,800.00...enough to buy a matching set of Lightings DB-5's...

But lets look at moving around a set of Tire baskets...

I moved and set up metal pole holes in the am and took them down by days end...

The weight and mass of 18 metal poleholes is a hefty sum...

The few tire baskets that I have dealt with are much heavier and will take much less banging about when being transported to the next temp location...

I have different ideas of where I might be able to host an event ...

Jason imagine me talking with Fred Cushing...I have this JUNK that we use for targets...

Can I put it up for the weekend for me and some friends to compete in a Disc Golf event on your property???

I have a hard time figuring how a set of tire baskets is better than a steel set...

The amount of $ that you(Jason) said NEFA might part with will buy a bunch of parts(JUNK).... that what(WHO???) Six different people will step up to build and place temp. where???

Or one set of metal poleholes that could be used for temp tourney sites...

Or as a set seed pole holes to use for a short period of time to help build a player base while funds are raised for a permanent set...

This is $ that are available right now...

Every few years NEFA should be able to generate enough funds to purchase and donate an entire set of poleholes to a budding course...

Throwing a single pole hole out here and there is ...well you pick your own adjective...

I want to point out that biking distance from Pyramids is as far away as Paul O'Landers place in Vermont...

Jason I will miss campaigning with/against you for the Secratary position...

Thanks,
T.M.DYER

Hi TM. To answer your first question, I think and I type, but I try not to mix the two.

As far as NEFA purchasing a set of standard baskets, there's nothing wrong with that idea except that it won't work cause NEFA won't do it because it makes no sense anymore.

Plus, like I said, NEFA is geographically too big and financially too small for it to pay for an entire set of baskets.

Besides that, DB5s? DB5s are practice baskets, not permanent unless you retrofit them somehow ala MacGiver.

I hear what you're saying about tire baskets being heavy and not withstanding much abuse, but the age of travelling poleholes for temporary courses are kind of over now in NEFAland.

Am I missing something.

Anyway, my plan is small and local. Your plan is NEFA-wide and one I can't grasp yet cause I see it as fundamentally unfeasible.

I also challenge your assumption that the $400-grants that NEFA doles out to courses is dumb. It provides each course with inspiration -- not to mention enough cash for a basket, a teepad and a sign.

So, in closing, I don't think NEFA can finance an entire course, but it can help finance a bunch of courses.

Hey Jason,

Levity and sarcasm are hard in this medium...

I was looking forward to some sparring on the web with you over the secretary position...

I am taking this opportunity to pick on you...

I look forward to disecting your last post of myopic outdated mealey mouthed...

I want to support your enthusiasm for the sport...I look forward to your reply...
Thanks,
T.M.DYER

Well TM you'll just have to come on November 16 so we discuss the finer points of disc golf promotion.

We can have a pie eat-off to see who would have been the better NEFA Secretary. Did you just hear a quick "yrgoindown" cough? Wasn't me.

Hey Dennis I just talked to the biggest friend of Newton Hill ever, Rick Miller, who years ago walked there and said someone should clean up this place. After walking the pretty groomed 41 acres it's easy to imagine that's hundreds of hours this guy has put in. He's like THE guy, and right now he's extremely psyched about getting disc golf onto Newton Hill.

All psych and love. Those tire baskets could be coming in real handy. Course in Worcester Proper. How lovely.

You know Jason I didn't just pick the idea for a tire basket out of thin air, (Hole 13 Taj ma Hole??) so I say credit schmedit. My only real problem with the tire baskets was gravity, it took a REAL carpenter to fix that, huh Joel?
We were just glad to be a part it of all those years ago. I have heard some very good things about the Island course and I can't wait to get back there.
If you do get things moving at Newton Hill I was once a Highlander and our cross-country team used The Hill for training and racing so maybe I could help you stay out of their way while you are doing your thing.
See you on the 16th

Norm has delivered, as promised, a motley semi-set of -- I believe -- seven tire baskets of ill-repute and just plain freaking ill. But thank you Norm and Dave for the delivery. Still trying to figure out where to put these worst of baskets.

As for the 18 brand new tire baskets we're going to build, we are amassing forces and still of course could use more people -- more people more fun. But we're talking about work here, grueling bloody-your-hands with cutting wood and drilling holes and threading plastic-coated wire, and cutting chain labor, with sweat and everything, including lots of "Not like that!" blurting.

Tough stuff, and not for everybody.

_____________________________________

My dad the local Worcester historian brought to my attention tonight a magnificently-named local historical figure, George Frisbie Hoar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Frisbie_Hoar. My dad said if we get the course in on Newton Hill we should name the course after him. How perfect would THAT be?

Do you need any yellow paint donated???

I didn't get it Norm at first. Now that I've thought about it I still don't get it, and we don't need yellow paint. Or do we?

Hey I'm running for NEFA Secretary anyway. TM's going down. Hot Dog Annie's dogs straight up. No dipping the buns in water called it.

Hey Jason,

Is the secretary race back on???

Thanks,
T.M.DYER

I have a nice picture disc from the last time wedid this. With two really drunk in the middle of the picture.

I just woke up, Sorry. Drunk Guys in the middle, and lots of others around them.

I'll be there.

No TM, only symbolically. Which means we can still run against each other, unless you MIND running for a position that doesn't exist. Some people are picky about stuff like that but not me.

Feel free to drop out of the race anytime, and pick ME for Imaginary NEFA Secretary, a race where the votes aren't cast on ballots, or counted with math.

We could start with the negative campaigning immediately, floating AP-like articles to the general media:

NEFA Secretary Candidate Uses Straight Gas With Chainsaw, Fries Engine

And more lurid National Inquirer pieces:

NEFA Candidate Eschews Napkin for Sleeve

It could get ugly, so then we could get semi-serious and start spewing our clear and present goals for disc golf, say, for 2009:

Play again with my right arm without going "Oww."
Hold four perfect tournaments
Get another course in the ground, as close to Marshall Street as possible
Finish the pro shop and continue to make Marshall Street and Pyramids great

So there.

So I met at the site with a group of people who are in charge of Newton Hill, who've cleaned up the place and want to provide free recreation for the people of the city. At the back parking lot to the left of Doherty High School in Worcester, Massachusetts, I went early and set up two Mach Lites on the hill. The first two holes, sort of.

So the five of us meet and talk and they're total volunteers, one of them a woman who teaches at Doherty. Rick Miller, the driving force behind the enormous clean-up of the 40-someodd acres. Amazingly, much of it has been perfectly cleared just like you'd clear a disc golf course, with low branches and brambles gone. Also, it has the challenge of being a multi-use piece of land, with walkers with dogs and runners. Still they were totally psyched.

Turns out the guy who owns nearby Blue Jeans Pizza (sp?) knows these idealists and wants to sponsor. He came just for five minutes as his business is booming, but he's all over it.

So I get to the point where I ask, So who are the people who can say yes to this project? and one of them points to Rick and Kevin, and they've got yes yes yes coming out of their mouths, so that all of us are getting that really excited "Let's DO this!" feeling going.

And we play the two Mach Lite holes, which lead up toward the summit, and when we've finished they ask, "Where's Hole 3?" No hole 3 and we talk some more and I laid it all out how a course in the city will inevitably attract some undesirables, including litter and vandalism, but that the power of the good disc golfer could take hold with really good and clear (and not too church-lady) signage. And you get enough people who love the course and good prevails over ruffianism.

And we throw all the discs down the hill, about 200 feet, and they go wow when I demonstrate anheizer, and the Wizard gently s-curves down the hill, between the trees, and into the path.

That's another thing; you can't use the paths, at least not all the time.

Anyway, now my task is to come up with a design, on 40 beautiful acres, and some printed material that makes sense to the several bodies that have to sign off on this.

Still, they liked the idea of an object course first, and the painted rocks with painted numbers for tee markers buried to ground level.

So, still just talk, but starting to rev up and all I have to do for a disc golf course to exist -- this week -- is to go out there and put in these rocks for tees and some tape for trees with a Sharpie to number them, and that great great thing begins.

There's still a few right moves that have to be made but I'm feeling optimistic about this one. I told them the first baskets should be the tire baskets we're about to make.

BTW, is anyone coming next Sunday to make them that we don't already know about? As far as commitments, it's a scant crew of five people, with me one of them and I don't know how to do anything. Need a couple more people. You'll got to heaven and, if you come for the whole shebang, three month's Pyramids membership, otherwise a month if you come just for lunch.

As always I'll try to get Billy Mac and Brent involved in the initial design, since both of those guys can go home and draw the course from memory. Plus we have aerial photographs. Plus it was the three of us who figured out Barre Falls and West Thompson, both counter-clockwise courses, which in our limited experience seems to favor lefties, or maybe just because Brent throws lefty and Billy Mac throws a lot of righty flicks, so they both can see those fairways.

Anyway, once again too many paragraphs for most people. But doesn't this sound like something worth sinking your teeth into?

Awesome,so good to hear about new courses,I can get that warm feeling just by reading your post!! Been doing that drawing from memory thing for those up there who need to see such,in fact I'm going to talk with them tomorrow!! Can you choose your months of membership??Would expect any other question from a fair weather golfer like me??

What time is all this basket building happening?

A buddy and I are planning to play Pyramids in the morning before I drop him at the train in Worcester at 1:00.

If you're still building I'll come back out.

We're evolving.

It used to be: Build it and they will come.

Now we start building it and people come help. This moment, this time, this place, this plan. Seems like the greatest thing ever.

Maybe this is what grass roots disc golf is about. Basically, the plan is to set up the installation of the next course, wherever it may be.

The agenda: Build and repair enough tire baskets for one full set. Paint signs and tee-marker rocks, with painted numbers. I'll try to get the signs and rocks pre-painted for their numbering and text.

The text for the golf course signs in the middle of Worcester, Massachusetts, will be an important part of presenting the course to the disc-golf-clueless public.

We'll have to have a sign that explains the rules on Hole 1.

The big concern at the place I'm currently eying is vandalism, so I was thinking, for additional signage:

First off, please don't wreck this sign.
Second, please don't wreck the disc golf course emerging right here on Newton Hill. And please tell your friends not to wreck it.
Third, if you wreck it we'll find you and kill you.

The vandalism concern? Ten times normal. Gotta be smart enough to let the good triumph over evil lite.

The sign text may need some editing: "...kill you with one of the chainsaws we used to make this course, phk face."

You have to get into the mind of the potential vandals early, and gain the upper hand by confusing them with double-irony right on the signage. The ultimate goal is to get the worst loser punks to help you clear fairways. Plus you always have the chainsaw in your hands when disagreements arise.

I like the sudden "Vroom," with a big upward twitch of the saw blade, and saying, with unreadable deadpan, "Sometime's Alfred seems to have a mind of his own...down boy."

Hard to lose an argument when you're holding a chainsaw. It doesn't even have to be running.

Let's make the baskets first, though. This will be awesome. Thank you all who are really coming. Sunday, Nov 16, from mid-morning till they're done, then paaaahhhhhtayyyy.

Is mid morning like 9am ish? Do you need any tools or should we ask Joel?

Hi Barry. Mid-morning is, in fact, nine. Or nine-ish for some.

We wanna get stuff done, but we don't take off for late points, whatever I mean.

Today I went out and got the pressure treated plywood and 2x4s, and truck tires and wire and chain, some slightly substandard -- same size and shape but M14-ish, which is crap.

But remember these baskets SHOULD be crap, an ugly albeit fully-functional set of targets we'll plop on a piece of land somewhere just to plant the disc golf seed. Then fundraising, then real baskets, then real tees and real tee signs.

I am such a loser. I didn't gather and prime the rocks and wood for the signs and tee markers. We'll have that ready in the morning, though...maybe. Something about gathering these fist-sized rocks has me stumped in a procrastination loop.

Maybe God has me covered this time. No wait, Thom Carr. Thom Carr has me covered, cause he's bringing Heather.

And Ala and Michelle are coming.

And Joel is coming.

Rick's probably coming. Gill threatened to come, and if goes to bed right now he'll be fine tomorrow, till about 2 when the drinking'll be heavy.

I don't mean to scare people off; we'll have a nice lunch, too.

Others have said they're coming. As for Norm's question, yes if you choose November 16 to February 16 as your "Select Your Own" months, cause that's the one option at this time (11/15/08/6:36 p.m.)

But we're nothing if not malleable, Norm. For YOU? For you Norm define your role, give yourself a title, and name your terms. You come here to make baskets with us tomorrow? You can come over and fk my sister. Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

So I got sidetracked; fkn Norm.

Barry yes we'd love a nice battery operated drill and even one of those cool back and forth saws that'll cut through tire.

Actually, I know nothing. But I looked at one of the baskets Norm brought back and went out and got all the stuff it's made out of:

Almost-1-inch pressure-treated 8x4 sheets of plywood
Pressure treated 8-foot 2x4s
Chain, almost 400 feet for 12 baskets
Electrical wire for tying the chain top and bottom
16-inch truck tires
Beer
Food

We also have the paint and brushes for the rocks that I can't gather. Darn stoopid rocks. For the last six days at least four times a day I think of those rocks I can't gather. I know right where they are. As a youngin I mowed this psychologist's lawn, and during one of our conversations he said "procrastination is a form of self-punishment." That was so deep so many years ago I still almost don't understand it, even though it's become a mantra of sorts.

We need to make at least 24 2-foot-in-diameter plywood circles, and we need to cut 12 circular holes around the outer edge of each 2-foot plywood circle large enough to fit your normal disc golf chain link through.

We probably have most of the stuff but if you're coming and you have easy access to tools...

I purposely didn't get the nuts and bolts and screws and washers needed to put all these pieces together. We have a plethora of possibilities here already.

One thing to keep in mind is these should be bad baskets, ones that'll last about 10 years and, in the best of worlds, help to start courses the same tried and tested way Barre Falls, West Thompson and, for that matter, Pyramids were started, with esthetically hideous targets, that worked fine and were replaced by their higher-tech metal brethren.

Oh yeah, the one thing we forgot on production day six years ago when we made the initial West Thompson baskets: a drill to drill holes through each tire for drainage. Weeks later during a West Thompson round Joel went through with such a drill and made the holes.

We're older now, and wiser. If you have such a magical drill...

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The great thing about beer is that it makes other people really drunk if they drink enough but if I keep drinking beer like tonight? I get smarter. It's so obvious how smart I am, like, right at this moment of incredible clarity.

Who wants to play fkn chess? like kinda weird feeling. WITH double vision which is why one eye is closed but...but...I'm just messing with all of you.

What I'm really about on this next disc golf course project is me telling me over and over again what I want to be about, and knowing what I want to be about, and that's helping courses get put in the ground. New courses yay what's better? Nothing's better than a new disc golf course.

And guess what? It's hard. It's hard getting a whole great course in the ground with permission and everything and people playing the course.

There's another thing looming right now that people haven't realized, and that is the number of disc golf courses -- to throw out a number -- will double in a decade. The number of players, meanwhile, will triple. I am absolutely making this up, because I think it's true.

They sure did look nice on the side of your house Jason! I hope they can move to a new home quickly!!