Course OB Poll

Jeff Wiechowski · Post by **Jeff Wiechowski** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:15 pm

for Karl......... 8-)

Karl Molitoris · Post by **Karl Molitoris** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:31 pm

Thank you Jeff.

Jeff Wiechowski · Post by **Jeff Wiechowski** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:42 pm

You're Welcome 8-)

Karl Molitoris · Post by **Karl Molitoris** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:16 am

Interesting results so far (4/8/09 am). Seems to be split evenly between 'virtually none' and 'quite a bit', with 'in-between' not getting many votes at all.
This will put a TD in a quandary as to how to set up his / her course and placate that masses.

Wondering what the final talley will be....

Karl

Jeff Wiechowski · Post by **Jeff Wiechowski** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:37 am

Karl wrote:Wondering what the final talley will be.......

I left the poll with no end date, so all will get their chance to think it over and make a vote.

Chuck Kennedy · Post by **Chuck Kennedy** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:15 am

I'm not sure the two most common votes so far are independent. I think the first one regarding roads and buildings being OB is the normal approach for appropriate course design. The second one builds on that for courses where there's not enough natural terrain to provide a challenge. It would seem that everyone who chose that option also would agree with the first option?

Todd Lapham · Post by **Todd Lapham** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:22 am

Yeah I would have voted for both. There should be some non natural OB at most courses. Especially on a course where you can still easily get up and down for a par with a bad drive.

Jim Bobka · Post by **Jim Bobka** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:26 am

Not to answer the obvious, but I guess it depends on the course. Heavily wooded needs virtually no OB, unless in a safety situation, or what is listed in the poll (ponds, roads, buildings, etc.)

DDGC two years ago had some yellow rope marking extra OB, which wasn't too difficult to maneuver, and added more thought to the shot.

I suppose a large Pro division would require extra added OB to filter out the really low scores. If there was a mixed field of experienced/inexperienced players, the extra OB could apply only to the Pros / AM1 players, and left out for the inexperienced players (AM2s, etc.).

Having played a minimum amount of courses in my short career, my opinion is only .02, but a little extra OB on some wide open easy shots would add to the challenge.

I voted for the second choice, but lean slightly to the "extra" OB in certain cases.

Matt Stroika · Post by **Matt Stroika** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:30 am

Todd Lapham wrote:Yeah I would have voted for both. There should be some non natural OB at most courses. Especially on a course where you can still easily get up and down for a par with a bad drive.

Agreed with Lappy and Chuck on this. I think it is a faulty poll.

Karl Molitoris · Post by **Karl Molitoris** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:01 am

Matt, Chuck, et al...

Disagree. They CAN be independent!

If a course has virtually no roads, buildings, and property boundries, choice # 2 might or might not - depending on the "natural hardness" of the course - be a birdie-fest. But it is the choice for those who believe "naturalness is key".
Choice # 4 would virtually ensure that a birdie-fest would NOT happen due to "TD intervention".

How can you say these 2 are similar?

Karl

Chuck Kennedy · Post by **Chuck Kennedy** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:23 am

They aren't similar. One is a subset of the other.

Karl Molitoris · Post by **Karl Molitoris** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:46 am

Come on Chuck, first you say

I'm not sure the two most common votes so far are independent.

Then you say

They aren't similar

Independent connotes differentiation. "Aren't similar" denotes differentation. Therefore your statements are conflicting at worst, confusing at best.

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with a poll "showing subsets". In fact, if you analyze such, you find that a LOT of polls just "keep splitting fractions off of the initial pie" by further "refining" the initial point. i.e., OB surrounding every hole - OB on 75% of holes - OB on 50% of holes - etc.

Karl

Chuck Kennedy · Post by **Chuck Kennedy** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:14 am

With the addition of the words "not a birdiefest" in the second option, it's possible for a course with only roads/water/buildings OB to meet this criteria with no added OB or with additional OB added that's not needed. Better if the second option were worded as you indicated where you want a bunch of OB whether or not it's needed just to increase the challenge.

Chris Piaseczny · Post by **Chris Piaseczny** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:09 pm

I don't like any of these options. Its somewhere in between "limited" and "a healthy amount".

It also depends on the natural terraig and space available for a course. A course like B-land doesn't need too much, a couple of mando's and ob rockwalls. A course like Emerald Isle in CA needs tons of OB because it's very wide open with few obstacles. (It's on a par 3 golf course)

-chris p

Karl Molitoris · Post by **Karl Molitoris** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:43 am

Well, you know Chris, if I provided an option that precisely fit everyone's EXACT opinion, the poll's results would show 1 vote for each scenario...

1) 1
2) 1
3) 1
4) 1
5) 1
6) 1
etc

...and that wouldn't show us anything. It's only a poll; excuse me for not being able to read your mind and word every scenario perfectly.

Karl

Mike Murphy · Post by **Mike Murphy** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:54 am

I love polls on this site.

The threads are spent arguing about the poll options rather than the issue the poll is about.

Love NEFA!!

David Hoey · Post by **David Hoey** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:56 am

Other: Please explain...

is always a good way to wrap up a toughly worded/contested poll option scenario.

Karl Molitoris · Post by **Karl Molitoris** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:09 am

Dave,

Your "option" is a valid one, but statistically one tries to stay away from such - as that option may garnesh a lot of votes (and thus just has you wondering 1) what the voter actually / really meant and 2) potentially invalidates the results).
And then you'd have to conduct another poll, etc...and god knows the average attention span around here is not long enough to handle 1 topic for too long - let alone string multiple thoughts / polls together!

As is, the poll's options give a wide enough breadth as to 'cover' all scenarios. Besides, nothing 'concrete' is going to come of this; it's just to give TD's, et al an "idea" of what the constituents want.

Karl

John DeBois · Post by **John DeBois** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:15 am

Natural OB (water, property lines, streets, etc) is sweet, everything else is for the birds

Chris Piaseczny · Post by **Chris Piaseczny** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:23 pm

Karl wrote:It's only a poll; excuse me for not being able to read your mind and word every scenario perfectly.

Karl

Karl, chill out. Perhaps my tone came thru weird, I don't know. No need to get testy. I just felt there was too big a difference between the words "healthy" and "limited". Maybe my definition of "healthy" varies from your own.

Didn't mean to offend, just my opinion....I'm allowed.

Chris P

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