Tomahawk lands at a 90 degree angle. Can I lay disc flat?

[Joe Yaskis]

Just for my info

I was playing in a tourney and I had a tomahawk land 90 degrees, straight up in down in the ground. I flattened disc out 180 degrees and went to mark it from the front of the disc. Can I do this? The group said no and I agreed, just not 100 percent sure. Thanks in advance guys.

[Gary Cyr]

I would think you can't lay it flat

[Matt Stroika]

mark it with a mini or play it as it lies. Pretty sure that those are your only two options.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Yep.

[Joe Yaskis]

Thanks guys

[Mark Valis]

mark it with a mini or play it as it lies. Pretty sure that those are your only two options.

Do you mark it from the front of the disc or from the front most part that is in the ground?

[Gary Cyr]

I would say the front part of the disc that is in contact with the playing surface whatever that surface is. If that part is in the ground then make it there. If the disc is stuck in the ground but also leaning forward against a log then you would place your mini on the log because that would be the playing surface.

[Dave McHale]

Gonna disagree with you here gary. I think the rule of verticality extends to marking your lie - IMO you'd mark directly down from the front edge of the disc, same as you would when marking below a disc up in a tree.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The "front edge" is whatever edge is closer to the basket whether the disc is angled toward or away from the pin.

[Gary Cyr]

But is it the front most part of the disc that is actually touching the playing surface or is it the rule of verticality as Dave Mchale is saying?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Doesn't matter if the edge closest to the pin is touching the playing surface since it many times is not when suspended in foliage even an inch above (or below) the playing surface

[Karl Molitoris]

Disagree.

803.3A

...placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc.

I see no where in that rule that alludes to "verticality". Verticality only comes into play with OB situations.
Not with marking situations - except "maybe" with suspended-off-the-playing-surface / 2-meter situations...but this isn't one of those.

To properly mark a disc with a mini, the mini would have to "touch" the thrown disc. If the disc has at least ANY part of it on the playing surface, one would have to use THAT "contact point" to determine where to place the mini - whether or not the disc is "angled over" where the mini would end up being properly placed or not (as would be the case of a disc tombstoned at a 45-degree angle toward the target).

Karl

Ps: If you can find a 'conflicting rule' then it's just 1 more case of the rules needing a REALLY good going over .

[Chuck Kennedy]

The Rules Q&A indicates there are currently no specific rules for dealing with discs below the playing surface: http://www.pdga.com/faq/rules-questions ... ng-surface

But the last line in the Q&A indicates that the Fairness rule 803.01F could apply since "marking upwards" from below the playing surface seems a logical extension of "marking downwards" from above the playing surface.

[Karl Molitoris]

While a "logical extension" may SEEM logical, if we have a rule - which we do - which infers the mini MUST touch the disc and the playing surface at the same place, then we should follow the RULE...and not apply 'logical extensions' unless we HAVE to. And in the situation presented we do NOT.

Karl

[Gary Cyr]

While a "logical extension" may SEEM logical, if we have a rule - which we do - which infers the mini MUST touch the disc and the playing surface at the same place, then we should follow the RULE...and not apply 'logical extensions' unless we HAVE to. And in the situation presented we do NOT.

Karl

I agree with what Karl is saying in that if the disc is touching the actual playing surface (the ground in this case) I would say that the mini should touch the disc when it's placed as a marker.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Sorry Karl, but that statement about the mini touching the thrown disc can only be applied if the whole disc is on the playing surface (note: the statement uses the word "can" not "must" also). How many times has the front edge of your disc been on a twig or branch where only the back edge of your disc is on the playing surface? Do you mark with a mini where the disc touches the playing surface at the back, where the disc is touching the twig or in front of the whole disc even if the mini does not touch the disc? It's the same thing when the front edge is below the playing surface and some other part of the disc touches the playing surface. Mark on the playing surface where the edge closest to the pin is projected upwards.

[Karl Molitoris]

Disagree.

Good try at arguing Chuck but no go! The 'can' alludes to a player's perogative to mark with a mini (opposed to the other option of just using the disc as the lie indicator) - it has nothing to do with what EVER it is you're trying to muddy the waters with (and whatever THAT is I'm not buying it).

YES, the marker mini MUST touch the disc. If one uses the mini, one must NOT move the just-thrown-disc. What part of that don't you understand?

Karl
Ps: You sometimes remind me of Fonzy - just unable to say the "wro..." word.

[Chuck Kennedy]

You conveniently didn't respond to my example of marking when your mini can't touch the front edge when the front edge of the disc is on a branch and the back edge is on the playing surface. You do not mark at the back edge. There's no rules conflict with the mini touching the front edge because we have multiple scenarios for marking where that's not needed such as this less common tombstone situation. Using the edge closest to the pin, wherever that is, is the over-riding concept for marking.

[Karl Molitoris]

I didn't "conveniently" not respond to it - I purposefully didn't get involved with your bullsharking (which just muddies the waters).

I've been marking my discs with a mini which has touched the thrown-but-unmoved-disc (and thus, have been following the rules as printed - not as has been interpreted by someone).
Maybe YOU haven't been playing by the rules (all these years) if YOU'VE been marking the way you propose!

Karl

[Chuck Kennedy]

Karl, it's not bullsharking. The front edge of your disc is lying on a branch with the back end on the playing surface. Do you put a mini on the ground in front of your disc even if it doesn't touch the front edge or do you slide it under the disc until it touches the disc? If you agree that the mini goes in the front, then you accept the argument that the front edge of the disc closest to the pin is the reference point for marking as I've stated several times and is supported by several rules also indicated.

[Steve Timm]

The Rules Q&A indicates ....

Thanks so much Chuck! You confuse us more every day.
You have revealed the location of the "Red Headed Stepchild"
of the pDGA rules - Q and A !!!

Now that we can find QA, how do we apply them?
Are they just suggestions?

steve timm

[Karl Molitoris]

The front edge of your disc is lying on a branch with the back end on the playing surface. Do you put a mini on the ground in front of your disc even if it doesn't touch the front edge

No!

do you slide it under the disc until it touches the disc?

Yes!

is supported by several rules also indicated

Where? I see one RULE. 803.3A. This covers it. No, none of the 'exceptions' (B through G) are applicable here. Q&A is Q&A.

And by the way, if I can't slide the mini "under" the disc without disturbing it (as the rules state I can't move the just-thrown-disc) so that the mini IS in contact with the disc and where the disc meets the playing surface, then I don't use the mini marker (and just use the just-thrown-disc to determine my stance).

I don't know or care what you do (and I don't care about your "interpretations"). I have a rule book and follow it.

Karl

Ps: It just bothers me when someone comes onto a MB and states things that are certainly debatable at best (dead wrong in a lot of cases), and other people don't do the "research" to see that that person is bullsharking (maybe to 'save face' - I don't know) and the general public actually believe that person.

Credibility stands up to all scrutiny.

[Gary Cyr]

I don't really care enough to go that deep into the few inches of difference, but my personal feelings are that if it's tomohawked into the ground the mini should touch the disc at the playing surface. I guess I don't compare this to a disc being slightly elevated at the front edge (because of a twig) because that twig is in contact with the "actual playing surface". In ohter words you would stand on that twig after you marked the disc.

I know someone is going to come back and say that is exactly like being stuck in a tree, because the tree branch is attached to the tree trunk,..which is in contact with the "Actual Playing suface"

But it's just not the same thing and I think most people can see that.

With that said,..mark it at the front edge or the part in contact with the ground. I really couldn't care less.

[Titan Bariloni]

If you can find a 'conflicting rule' then it's just 1 more case of the rules needing a REALLY good going over

Seems if we are all having an in depth debate over marking your lie...a fairly simple task/rule. Maybe the rules could use some work.

[ChUcK]

Karl, have you ever found your disc 3 feet off the ground in a bush? Where did you put your marker?

[Mike Kernan]

I agree that the pDGA rules need a little clarification in regards to this rule.

Karl is definitely correct in regards to the tombstone marker placement; even Chuck's Rules Q&A citation, when completely read, states, "Currently, 803.03, A, Marking the Lie, indicates that a shot must be marked with the mini marker touching the thrown disc."

Therefore it is obvious that the Rules Committee intends for a disc touching the playing surface to be marked directly in front of where the disc is touching the playing surface.

However, I can see the logic for once in Chuck's argument, that a disc above the playing surface is assumed to be marked at its leading edge. I believe the best way to clarify this rule would be to rewrite rule 803.08.A as:

803.08 Disc Above the Playing Surface

A. If a disc comes to rest above the playing surface in a tree or other object on the course, its lie shall be marked on the playing surface directly below it, behind the edge of the disc furthest from the basket on the line of play. If the point directly below the disc above the playing surface is an out-of-bounds area, the disc shall be declared out-of-bounds and marked and penalized in accordance with 803.09. If the playing surface directly below the disc is inside a tree or other solid obstacle, the lie shall be marked on the line of play immediately behind the tree or other solid obstacle. The director may designate a one throw penalty for discs that come to rest two meters or higher above the playing surface. The director may declare the two meter rule to be in effect for the entire course, or just for individual objects.


Bold text is my proposed clarification/added text which will eliminate this argument over 22 centimeters of ground or less

[Dave McHale]

doesnt it stand to reason then that your mini would typically be placed roughly an inch inside the outer edge of the disc, since it would be the bottom rim which is "in contact with the playing surface" and not the front edge itself most of the time?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Check this out: http://www.pdga.com/marking-a-lie

[Stephen Ditter]

Good stuff Chuck, thanks for sharing.

-mange

[Mark Sherwood]

Is this the first time in history that Karl has been wrong on a rules interpretation?