Interference question for Chuck

[John DeBois]

Chuck, this happened this weekend, thoughts?

We were on hole 14 at Warwick, throwing our upshots to the blue basket which sits on a peninsula green. From 250 feet out, I threw my upshot over the basket into a thorn bush. (The thorn bush sits at the back of the green, with an OB stream behind it.) Both myself, and the player next to me, thought the disc landed right in the middle of the bush. 2 minutes later, while others in the card were throwing their upshots, I see someone from Wolfe Woods (course next to Warwick) walking around with my disc. I ran up to him and asked why he had my disc and he said that he saw it in the stream and picked it up to see whose it was. He explained that the disc was completely surrounded by water and that there was no way it was in bounds.

So, what should we have done??

[Chuck Kennedy]

Thank the player for retrieving your disc. Then, you have two options based on interference. Even though the player didn't know he was interfering since he claims the disc was in the water, you could claim the interference was "intentional." Thus, you either get the disc where it was interfered with which is in the OB water. Or, you get a rethrow with no penalty according to 803.07A.

The fact you saw it in the bush after throwing doesn't mean it was there by the time that player got to it in the water. The disc is still live according to 803.07B since it wasn't at rest on the playing surface or target. So, if it rolled OB, that's where it would have been played had you gotten there before the other player.

[John DeBois]

Thanks Chuck! ... Ok, but let's say he hadn't touched it, and by the time we got there the disc had washed up on dry land? Didn't he interfere with the natural progression of the discs path? After looking at the rulebook during the break, I though that this part of 803.07B should be used:

"If a disc at rest on the playing surface or supported by the target is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official."


Thinking that since the group watched it go into the bush, it should be replaced there since there was no proving that it was OB. No?

The kid felt really bad about moving it. I told him not to stress about it ...

[Stephen Ditter]

Since the kid was not an official spotter, the disc was never determined to be out of bounds by the player. So wouldn't that make the disc inbounds?

-ditterman

[Chuck Kennedy]

Thinking that since the group watched it go into the bush, it should be replaced there since there was no proving that it was OB. No?

The key is that a disc in the bush IS NOT on the playing surface so it's still live until the player gets there to mark it just like a disc higher up in a tree that drops out before the player marks it. Likewise, 803.03F on Marking a Lie indicates that once the disc has landed in the water to a position based on its own momentum, that's where it has landed, even if the water then carries it to another location.

Of course, if you got there and the disc had already moved to touch land, you wouldn't know anything different. However, the other player did intentionally interfere with it while it was OB in the water so that's where the mark would be. Or, as I said, you could have rethrown with no penalty due to intentional interference.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Since the kid was not an official spotter, the disc was never determined to be out of bounds by the player. So wouldn't that make the disc inbounds?

Doesn't matter. The disc was intentionally interfered with apparently in OB. If a dog had picked it up and brought it to you soaking wet, and was able to woof, "OB," it would be the same as a person intentionally interfering.

[John DeBois]

If a dog had picked it up and brought it to you soaking wet, and was able to woof, "OB," it would be the same as a person intentionally interfering.

Hahaha, thanks Chuck

Looks like I should have taken the rethrow. We played it as OB, so at least we didn't get it completely wrong.

[Arty Graustein]

This reminds me of a somewhat similar scenario that happened on hole 14 at the Devens tourney. Player A's attempt at a putt came to rest half on top of the basket and half overhanging it. Two of us were still yet to finish the hole and there was a possibility that by putting out it could stir the target enough to either land player A's disc in the basket or miss with the possibility of getting a bad rollaway down the hill. My question is does the disc have to be marked once it comes to rest on top of the basket by player A or can he take his chances with whatever consequences happen due to the other players' throws?

[Dave McHale]

since the disc was at rest, it would be replaced back in its spot if you saw it move after it was agreed that it was at rest - it doesnt matter if you knock it in the basket or off into a 300' roller down a hill next to the basket. it's not like minigolf when you can still get a hole-in-one if your buddy knocks your ball in the cup when he takes his turn

[Arty Graustein]

Funny post Dave and although I do agree, Chuck's quote:

The key is that a disc in the bush IS NOT on the playing surface so it's still live until the player gets there to mark it just like a disc higher up in a tree that drops out before the player marks it.

is where my question stems. If the disc is on top of the basket it is not on the playing surface, correct? So if it comes to rest what if even a natural cause like wind knocks it off the top before player A has a chance to mark the lie?

[Craig Cutler]

Overall unlucky situation JDB. I still think you did the right thing by taking the penalty stroke. If we would have used that intentional interference call, and you parked the re-throw for 3,it would be just as sketchy as the original situation. The way you played and scored it was the worst way for you but leaves no doubt to your character on the course.

You also had to take the putt in the pricker bush, which sucked. If the player did not move the disc, maybe we would have had more insight to where your putt would have been from. From 220 feet away, it was hard to exacltly tell where your disc crossed in.

[John DeBois]

Yeah, true. The disc was wet when it was given back to me, so that made it a lot easier to take the OB stroke instead of trying to stretch the rules into my favor. Who knows if the disc would have washed on shore if guy didn't pick it up .. but that's what I get for throwing 50 feet over the basket, lol

[Raymond W. Parrish]

Funny post Dave and although I do agree, Chuck's quote:

The key is that a disc in the bush IS NOT on the playing surface so it's still live until the player gets there to mark it just like a disc higher up in a tree that drops out before the player marks it.

is where my question stems. If the disc is on top of the basket it is not on the playing surface, correct? So if it comes to rest what if even a natural cause like wind knocks it off the top before player A has a chance to mark the lie?

Simply answered by a cursory rules perusal. 803.07B:

If a disc at rest on the playing surface or supported by the target is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official.

[Arty Graustein]

Thanks for the feedback peeps. I looked further into it myself and found the same answer. I also found this from the PDGA Rules Q & A section:

Disc resting on top (DROT)
Question: I putted and my disc stayed on top of the basket. Now what?

Response: Applicable rules: 803.13, 803.07.B

The short answer is that it will take you one more throw to complete the hole. Formerly, you could leave it up there and give other players the chance to save you a stroke, but the rule that allowed that (in which a disc struck by another disc was played from its new lie) has been changed. Now, if a disc at rest is struck by another disc, it is returned to its original lie.

Since the person whose disc is on top has no chance of saving the stroke, it is reasonable to ask him to mark it if it may become a distraction

It seems that in the not too distant past

it was like minigolf when you can still get a hole-in-one if your buddy knocks your ball in the cup when he takes his turn

For the record, it was left up there and did not move as the others were holing out. I still would have liked to have heard Chuck's interpretation, but I think he has bigger fish to fry over in the "mini marking" thread.

[Titan Bariloni]

Chuck,

Very interesting call made this weekend at Sap Bucket...pertaining to this new rules adjustment...

My long putt...hits top basket...then swings down hits top of chaqins and does a full summersault and lands back up on top of basket.....now this is were it gets tricky.......

My disc lands with a portion of the disc(due to the top bar of the basket that prevents them from falling in....is rusted and broken....) inside the cylinder and the rest sticking up from the top of basket.....very very good chance in a few seconds it will fall in.....then before I matk disc....someone putts...hits top rim and bang my disc falls in.....we called it good...then at lunch the stroke was removed...

I don't think the new rules are very clear at all...and they left out a picture depicting a "good putt" since sometimes the top rail will be broken....and a portion of the disc may be half in the basket and half on top....plus this entire unless the disc is not on playing surface or target it is still live is crap.....if I was in a tree for 10 minutes above basket and when I arrive to mark it...it then suddenly falls and goes in...it is good? that is strange to have one case of above playing surface count......why is the basket not considered above playing surface?....since I did not "mark" the lie could have this fallen under player interference...and I would have the chance to reputt...?

just wondering but I feel the PDGA missed the ball again on making rules clear......seems even more confusing now....and see even with the new rules there is still issues unresolved IMO.....

[Chuck Kennedy]

The reason the rules are different for a disc on the playing surface and target versus in the tree has to do with having a lie or completing the hole versus no lie yet, respectively. If your disc is securely in the chains or basket, would you think it's okay that an action by another player or disc would be allowed to jar your disc out of the basket? Of course not. So for consistency, discs at rest suspended on the target are considered locked in position until removed and/or marked by the player regardless whether they are in a holed out position or not. Discs not on the playing surface nor on the target really do not yet have an official lie until the player gets there to appropriately mark it. So those discs are live until the player gets there to establish the lie.

With regard to a target with a broken part that currently does not meet PDGA approved specs, it's a judgment call by the group and/or approved by the TD. If the target in good repair allows throws to hole out thru the top, then I would have called that disc, partially in the basket from the top, good. But if the basket top would normally not allow discs to hole out from the top when in good repair, then I would agree with the 'not good' ruling.

[Eric Kevorkian]

I don't think the baskets were broken. I think they were designed that way, as multiple baskets seemed to be like that. I could be wrong...Ben Parker? Dave Frottingham? Johnny Betts???? anyone know the answer to that?

[Mike Dussault]

They don't look like they are manufactured. More likely some home made jobs. Not sure if they would be PDGA legal.

[David_Frothingham]

The baskets at Waterbury have openings large enough to allow a disc to fall through.

[David Gipson]

Here's my question. I throw from the tee and Ace,my disc is hanging in the cahins, player B throws Aces knocks my disc out of the basket landing on the ground.
Do I card the 1 or No????? CHUCK?

[Chuck Kennedy]

You should get the ace assuming it was not a blind hole and the group could see the disc in the chains. (If blind and you hear chains, I'm thinking you go take a look and get a witness once you see it in from a distance.) You could have asked the other players waiting to throw if they want you to pull it. If they say "no" then they have implicitly agreed your disc is at rest for the ace. Even if you don't ask, a player is not supposed to throw until the previous thrower's disc "appears" to be at rest. If that's on the ground or on the basket, the disc gets replaced in position if moved before the player gets there to mark it.