2011 Rules Changes

[Shawn Mullen]

Pulled this off the rules discussion on DGR. Some pretty interesting stuff being discussed.


http://pellucid.com/conrad/pdga/rules2011.html

[Karl Molitoris]

Excellent find Shawn! And while a LOT of what was discussed is still being discussed (with no firm resolution yet), it DOES show the general mindset of that committee. And some of it is weird (IMO).

A lot to comprehend....

Karl

[Matt Aubin]

really interesting stuff.

looks like wedgie aces will be a thing of the past; makes complete sense.

As far as jump putting, I think they need to take a hard turn in one direction or another; completely eliminate it, or allow it from any distance who cares (even overlook when the disc is released, contact point or not.) There will be backlash no matter what, but I think if you keep the vague rules without enforcement, and no solid lines (am i out? was that legal? should we call that?) you will only hurt the sport in the long run.

Change will be hard. There will be a ton of b!tching no matter what. But it has to be done. I can't think of another sport where there is such a defined line (10m) and.. you know... no actual line. As far as jump putting and releasing the disc with a contact point in the air (jumping, then putting), again... it's impossible to self-police, and the general consensus is 'let it go', tie goes to the runner.... over and over again.

Eliminating follow through on anything but the tee pad is dumb and dangerous. Even on a standstill approach a lot of people (backhand) will follow through naturally. Not doing so puts way to much stress on your joints and will make courses play longer. but more importantly, it's just not safe. Makes my knees hurt just thinking about it.

My opinion/theory is this: accuracy of putting beyond the 10m line is all about practice, not whether someone is allowed to follow through, jump, release in the air etc. I've played with folks who can drain 40 footers with no jump/follow through regularly, and guys who fall apart at 9.5 meters when they can't jump putt. Doesn't matter.

I used to think 'eliminate jump putting' because I just don't do it that much, and it was a pain to deal with the imaginary 10m line... and the players who took advantage of it. Now I'm of the mindset that, as long as you START behind your marker, I don't care what you do before, during or after the throw. It's still a throw. I don't think scores will change much, but it will be a better spectator sport seeing folks drain 100 footers flying through the air without regard to when they released or where they are on some imaginary line. If anything, I say bring the line in closer, say 5 meters and ALLOW MEASURING DEVICES. how dumb is that? 2 meter this, 10 meter that, 5 meter relief, 30cm.... nope, you have to guess.

[Raymond W. Parrish]

ALLOW MEASURING DEVICES. how dumb is that? 2 meter this, 10 meter that, 5 meter relief, 30cm.... nope, you have to guess.

Point of information for Matt:

802.04(A) reads

During a round, a player shall not use any artificial device that may assist in making a throw, except those devices that reduce or control abrasion to the skin (such as gloves, tape, bandages, gauze, etc.) and medical items (such as knee and ankle braces, etc.). Items used to prevent slipping on the teeing surface are also allowed. A player is specifically prohibited from using any artificial device that changes the position of the disc in the player's hand or artificially lengthens any of the player's throwing levers (fingers, wrist, arm, shoulder, etc.). The use of devices which assist in determining distances over 10 meters, such as range finders and GPS devices are prohibited. Measuring devices such as a tape measure may be carried and used to determine distances 10 meters and less for the purpose of rules enforcement.

[Matt Stroika]

Nice well thought out post Matt.

If they ban jump putting I will definitely be staying retired. If my friends don't let me jump putt, I will find new friends that will.

[Matt Aubin]

ahh sorry VR, i thought measuring was out across the board. did they change that recently? regardless, i've never seen anyone bust out a tape measure, not once.

[Raymond W. Parrish]

Nope; that rule has read that way for years. Common rules myth; now you can help debunk it.

I have carried a tape in my bag for almost as long as I have been playing tournaments. I have whipped it out only a handful of times, to either assure myself & my competitors that I am safely below 2m or to beat down a potential jump-putter's obviously corrupt "That's outside, right?" query & subsequent midget-step walkoff 'confirmation'.

[Craig Cutler]

http://pellucid.com/conrad/pdga/FallingPutt.txt

tough decision to be made. Cameras will pick up all of the illegal putts going on, not good for the sport. The "am I out question" , who can ever be sure. Elimniate the corcle completely? Maybe, IMO, takes away some skill from the game though.

[Dave McHale]

http://pellucid.com/conrad/pdga/HolingOut.txt

they're actually making a distinction between inner/outie wedgies now? Friggin ridiculous The entire purpose of the wedgie's current allowance for holing out was because you can't always prove whether a disc entered the side of the tray from the inside or outside, and at least was "fully supported by the entrapment device". Now, in true rules committee form, they start throwing "observations" into RULES and more room for grey-area into a rulebook which should otherwise be attempting to define cut and dry scenarios.

Make them count or don't, there's no reason they should only count SOMETIMES.

[Shawn Mullen]

I thought this was funny "If we do keep the original 803.04, which I recommend for now, let's be sure to correct the five (!) typos in that rule, as published in the current rulebook."

[Dave McHale]

aubin, you realize the "no followthroughs anywhere" etc that you talked about earlier was in "closed" status and not "passed", correct? http://pellucid.com/conrad/pdga/FallingPutt.txt

9/14: Though we won't be proposing any changes to the stance rules for the 2011
revision, Dr Rick Voakes has been thinking hard about a solution. Here is a recent
note of his with a proposed remedy:

^^ the proposal above, however, is a joke. 30M circle? Really? It's hard enough for people to estimate 10M, they want people to be able to prove one way or another that they're in/outside of ~100'? That's a lot of "walking it off", talk about killing speed of play.....

[Matt Aubin]

yeah i checked all the status's but thought i'd comment anyway.

30m would work better then 10m IMO... there would need to be stakes, painted rocks or something marking the line, but it doesn't need to be a circle around the basket, just a fairway marker. Sure, you'd get the rare instance of someone 100ft away to the side of the basket or even behind, but I don't think it will matter. The whole point would be to eliminate jump putting and foot faults, but longer approaches would still be OK to follow through.

Putting in 30m markers would be a lot easier than people think. I think there should be 10m markers on the fairway, in line with the tee/basket line, right now.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The 30m marker idea, if it ever went forward, might be a line perpendicular to the fairway sort of like a mando line - once you passed the line, you would not be able to jump independent of how far you might land from the basket on either side. Of course, multiple pin locations would complicate where those 30m marker stones would go.

[Marvino Manalo]

aubin, you realize the "no followthroughs anywhere" etc that you talked about earlier was in "closed" status and not "passed", correct? http://pellucid.com/conrad/pdga/FallingPutt.txt

9/14: Though we won't be proposing any changes to the stance rules for the 2011
revision, Dr Rick Voakes has been thinking hard about a solution. Here is a recent
note of his with a proposed remedy:

^^ the proposal above, however, is a joke. 30M circle? Really? It's hard enough for people to estimate 10M, they want people to be able to prove one way or another that they're in/outside of ~100'? That's a lot of "walking it off", talk about killing speed of play.....

Let's open it. I am sure speed of play doesn't mean anything if your money is in the line. Are we talking about pro. level or rules? For me all I care about putting should never cross the line everytime you putt. No matter what distance. How about foot fault drives? Anyone seen this happen?

[Michael Grossman]

The simple and correct thing to do is ELIMINATE the jump putt and any follow through past the point of the lie. This makes for consistency in calling any type of foot fault.

[Matt Stroika]

The simple and correct thing to do is ELIMINATE the jump putt and any follow through past the point of the lie. This makes for consistency in calling any type of foot fault.

Get rid of run ups on the fairways, heck why not eliminate them on the tee as well. Lets take all the athleticism out of the game.
Lets eliminate the jump shot in basketball and definitely the dunk too while we are at it.

[Karl Molitoris]

MOST important (outside of having fun ) is - if we HAVE to have rules - having rules which we CAN enforce.

So I'm in favor of either having NO run ups OR having no restrictions on 'follow throughs'. Either works !

But this half-of-one, half-of-the-other is like kissing your sister...just doesn't cut it.

Karl

[Michael Grossman]

The simple and correct thing to do is ELIMINATE the jump putt and any follow through past the point of the lie. This makes for consistency in calling any type of foot fault.

Get rid of run ups on the fairways, heck why not eliminate them on the tee as well. Lets take all the athleticism out of the game.
Lets eliminate the jump shot in basketball and definitely the dunk too while we are at it.

Eliminating the follow through past the lie does not eliminate run ups.

AND getting rid of basketball entirely will make the world a better place.

[Matt Stroika]

I definitely agree with the having fun part. I suppose it may look silly watching people dunk the disc but why not go with the later of removing the restrictions rather than eliminating a skill that a great number of players have worked decades on perfecting?

Ultimate seems to do OK with rules that aren't really enforced, no?

[Matt Stroika]

Eliminating the follow through past the lie does not eliminate run ups.

AND getting rid of basketball entirely will make the world a better place.

The run up and follow through is another one of the changes on the table.

I agree that NBA basketball is lame, but I wouldn't vote to get rid of it. Its actually fun to play. And, where would we put all the criminals if the NBA went away. We would need more jails.

[Michael Grossman]

Eliminating the follow through past the lie does not eliminate run ups.

AND getting rid of basketball entirely will make the world a better place.

The run up and follow through is another one of the changes on the table.

I agree that NBA basketball is lame, but I wouldn't vote to get rid of it. Its actually fun to play. And, where would we put all the criminals if the NBA went away. We would need more jails.

And what then would the world cup referees have left for career advancement opportunities?

[Michael Grossman]

I definitely agree with the having fun part. I suppose it may look silly watching people dunk the disc but why not go with the later of removing the restrictions rather than eliminating a skill that a great number of players have worked decades on perfecting?

Ultimate seems to do OK with rules that aren't really enforced, no?

Ultimate will teach you how to throw long and short distances with touch and accuracy without a run up.

[Karl Molitoris]

Matt said,

Ultimate seems to do OK with rules that aren't really enforced, no?

Everyone and his / her brother is watching YOU if you have the disc (so "getting away with" something is not too possible).
And just maybe because they're no money involved?!?!?!

I'll take that one (money has a way of "changing" people's well-intentioned priorities...) to the grave .

Karl

[Karl Molitoris]

As for the "Bob Beamon it all you want" (flying take-offs) - bring it on!

Although I'd rather be a spectator at Warwick than a player...
Scenario:
Bob over-throws his approach to long 3's pin. He sets up for his patented flying "Frenchman" putt. Engine rev'd, release the clutch, afterburners , he's airborne , he slams the putt in ...HE over shoots the basket .

Oh, oh! (this could get ugly).

Brings new meaning to the Sabbath tune "Into the Void" !!

Karl

[Josh Connell]

MOST important (outside of having fun ) is - if we HAVE to have rules - having rules which we CAN enforce.

The rules, as written, are perfectly enforceable. There is a huge difference between not being able to enforce a rule vs choosing not to enforce rules. Sadly, most folks are choosing not to enforce rules, not truly finding it difficult to enforce.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The rules, as written, are perfectly enforceable. There is a huge difference between not being able to enforce a rule vs choosing not to enforce rules. Sadly, most folks are choosing not to enforce rules, not truly finding it difficult to enforce.

That's not what the Rules Committee found in their investigation. Roughly half of the putt jumps studied with high speed videography by players who thought they had done it successfully were released after the player had left the ground including Dr. Rick on the RC. He was joking he might need to turn in his World Championship titles upon seeing that even he was not consistently doing it correctly.

[Josh Connell]

The rules, as written, are perfectly enforceable. There is a huge difference between not being able to enforce a rule vs choosing not to enforce rules. Sadly, most folks are choosing not to enforce rules, not truly finding it difficult to enforce.

That's not what the Rules Committee found in their investigation. Roughly half of the putt jumps studied with high speed videography by players who thought they had done it successfully were released after the player had left the ground including Dr. Rick on the RC. He was joking he might need to turn in his World Championship titles upon seeing that even he was not consistently doing it correctly.

Ok, so what you're saying is players are consistently performing an illegal action according to the rules, so the problem is with the rule? It couldn't possibly be because they've never had to question the legality of their shot because no one has ever called them on it? Seriously, if more people actually called questionable jump putts on the course, maybe the offending players would work harder to actually perform a legal version of the shot or adjust their game to get along without jumping.

It's the same as the old argument regarding foot faulting on a run-up in an the open field fairway. If it's not going to be called, then players worry less about being legal and continue on with the status quo of missing their mark as often as they hit it. But if it is going to be called consistently, they'll surely be more conscientious about their footwork and get it right or risk piling up the penalty strokes.

If the RC wants to change rules, that's fine. But I don't think "the old rule is unenforceable" flies as a good reason, especially when it is perfectly enforceable with a modicum of effort from each and every player.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Maybe it wasn't clear what they found. Half of the putts that looked legal turned out not to be legal when seen on high speed video. If players can't make the call properly, then it's an unenforceable rule and they don't have a solution other than allowing anything or making the whole course stand & deliver. They want neither option so any change is at an impasse.

[John Nolan]

I would say that a call that requires a high speed camera to verify would qualify as unenforcable. At least until the introduction into DG of the challenge flag and instant replay.

I agree with Karl in that runups/followthroughs should be treated the same for all shots (except maybe tee shots) because there's no fundamental difference between a putt, approach, fairway drive, etc. except for an arbitrary line at some given distance from the pin.

We (and the PDGA board) should be weighing the pros and cons of either eliminating all follow throughs or allowing all follow throughs. Are putts within 10m that much easier when allowed to overstep? Are approaches/fairway drives that much more difficult when forced to stand and deliver?

[LeftyhasRights]

Will PDGA send out a rules book to new/renewing members?