Casual Water Question

[Gabriel Boys]

Say I have a disc in a small stream that is casual water. The bank right behind the disc is fairly steep (i.e. I cannot stand on the bank) but there is a tuft of grass at the bottom of the bank which in theory I can put my foot on. When I try to step on the tuft of grass it sinks under the water. In this case can I move to the top of the bank to shoot, or do I just have to shoot with one foot completely submerged in the water since the tuft started out above the water and on the ground behind the disc?

Gabe

[Chuck Kennedy]

The fact there's a tuft of grass is irrelevant. The nearest dry lie on the line of play is where you are to mark your next lie whether it's sand, grass, dirt, concrete, etc. You are allowed to have your foot partially submerged if that's more comfortable of a stance than being completely dry on the steeper bank. Or, you can take an unplayable penalty and move up onto the top of the bank on the line of play.

[Gabriel Boys]

Awesome, thanks for the quick response. I was pretty sure that counted as an unplayable lie, but I was not really sure so I just threw from the stream (and in fact I ended up being both feet in).

Gabe

[Kyle R Enman]

803.05
C. Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual
water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles,
harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically
designated by the director before the round. Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole. The type of relief a player may obtain is based on the location of the obstacle and is limited as follows:
C2. Casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion: The player must first attempt to remove the
obstacle unless a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, or if a portion of the obstacle is also between the lie and the hole, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is
no closer to the hole; is on the line of play; and is not more than five meters from the original
lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is
announced by the director). Alternatively, the player may declare an unplayable lie and proceed in
accordance with 803.06.

I do not see the word DRY so I would argue that he would be able to mark it at the first place where he feels comfortable to throw as long as he doesn't go more then the five meters

[Gabriel Boys]

You learn something new every day, I did not realize there was a difference between the unplayable lie rule and the "Casual Obstacles" rule, thanks for the post.

[Gabriel Boys]

Actually this brings up one more question. The first post mentions having your foot partially submerged, is it legal to stand in the water behind the disc with your feet fully submerged?

[Kyle R Enman]

No if the Stream Is Declared Casual you have the option to stand behind your lay unless the TD says otherwise

[Gabriel Boys]

Oops Well now I know. In this case there was no way for me to stand on the bank without falling into the water, so I am pretty sure I could have taken it on the top of the bank since that was the closest point behind the disc where I could stand and throw (and the water was casual), or maybe I am not understanding the rules.

[ekap]

Also Gabe, it doesn't have to "Count" as unplayable. It is an unplayable lie if you think it is for any reason, and you don' t have to state your reason or get approval from your group.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The nearest "dry" location moving back on the line of play is the first point not in the casual water. That's as far back as you can go (max 5m) without taking an unplayable penalty to move back farther (or if the TD granted extended relief more than 5m in the player meeting). However, you don't have to move back to the first dry point, including not at all, if you wish to play from in the water.

[Dave McHale]

yup, like chuck said it's closest available spot and *UP TO* 5 meters. A lot of players play casual relief as "up to 5 meters of relief" which is wrong - you can't just choose anywhere in that range, it has to be the closest location to the original lie as possible on that line.

[Gabriel Boys]

Right, in this case the closest available place out of the stream for me to throw from was at the top of the bank which was within a foot and a half of my disc.

[Dave McHale]

*technically* like chuck said, it's first dry point. but in real life I don't think anyone in your group is going to call you on taking it up top where it's flat. hardlined 100% "by the book" though, you'd have a pretty crappy stance on that slope if you took relief from the water

[Josh Connell]

*technically* like chuck said, it's first dry point. but in real life I don't think anyone in your group is going to call you on taking it up top where it's flat. hardlined 100% "by the book" though, you'd have a pretty crappy stance on that slope if you took relief from the water

Actually, *technically* it's the "the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole; is on the line of play; and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official". Nothing about first dry point or any other qualification defining "nearest lie", just the majority decision of the group or an official.

If the scenario is as Gabe described in his first post, and that "tuft of grass" at the bottom of the bank sinks in when he steps on it, I'd say that spot is just as wet as where his disc sits in the water and it isn't any better of a lie than the one from which he's seeking relief. So even a hard-line, by the book interpretation wouldn't require him to take his stance there. He's seeking relief from standing in the casual water, after all.

His choice to play from the top of the bank is perfectly acceptable no matter how "hard line" one wants to be.

[Chuck Kennedy]

If the bank itself is deemed a playing surface, then the player can't go to the top of the bank if there's a point not wet that's physically closer to the disc in the water. There's nothing in casual relief rules that uses verticality for repositioning a lie. So closest point not wet (i.e. not in the area where the player is seeking relief)as measured in a straight line is farthest point the mark can be placed without penalty (if under 5m). But I would personally allow the player to mark on the top of the bank if it was vertical or even overhanging.

[Dave McHale]

His choice to play from the top of the bank is perfectly acceptable no matter how "hard line" one wants to be.

only if agreed to by the group. which is necessary but again opens up the "there is no strict ruling" issue since a lax group can give him 3' away from the dropoff if they want (hey, it's the group's interpretation of what's "closest" even if it may seem blatantly wrong to someone else), and a tough group could make him play from the near-vertical slope of dirt north of the tuft of grass - the tuft which, for the record Josh, I was ignoring in my last post I was just talking about a scenario where you have a steep slope from the water's edge to the elevated portion of flat ground above, I wasn't going to get into the "it sinks when you step on it" issue hehe

[Josh Connell]

Going again on what Gabe's original post describing the situation, the bank was "fairly steep (i.e. I cannot stand on the bank)". And later on, he posted that "the top of the bank...was within a foot and a half of my disc."

So even if we assume as Chuck does that the bank is a playing surface, it's probably steep enough that a stance at the top of the bank is within 30 cm of the mark placed somewhere on the bank, making it perfectly legal anyway.

And Dave, I think there is intentionally "no strict ruling" simply because no two situations are going to be alike. Leaving it to the group decision is really the only way to go, since they're the ones on the scene able to assess everything first hand. (btw, I know you ignored the tuft of grass thing, I just used your post as a jumping off to address the whole thread).

[Gabriel Boys]

The reason I was asking this was actually because one person in my group said I had to take it from the bottom of the bank, and the only way I could physically do that was to stand in the water (which on a very cold day was not the best), so I was just curious. I did not know the rule well enough to really argue the point, however had the situation been switched I definitely would have let the player play from the top of the bank.