Pelham layout change!!!

Nate Spear · Post by **Nate Spear** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:12 pm

Muldoon Park in Pelham NH has been due for a face lift for a while and it has been approved to get one! This slightly schizophrenic course will no longer play like a pitch and putt front nine/wild and sometimes deep tree shot back nine. Thanks to Roy Doar for keeping with the courses strengths, and improving on it's weaknesses in the layout of what will be a much improved course. Coordinating the effort with the Parks and Recreation Comity, the dates of April 11 and 12, a Monday and Tuesday, have been given as work days based on the availability of our free labor pool. Any help on these two date with hole location and general brush clearing would be appreciated! Details to follow.

Brad Harris · Post by **Brad Harris** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:33 pm

This is great news! Can you give any details about how it's changing?

Nyles_Johnson · Post by **Nyles_Johnson** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:45 pm

Awesome. Sometimes change is good!

Nate Spear · Post by **Nate Spear** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:26 pm

I walked though it with Roy last week and we staked it with orange flags for the pins and labeled most everything, pink or blue flags for the tee pads.
From memory: Hole 1 stays the same, 2 moves into the woods to the left just a bit, 3-9 I believe are all scratched as they are. 3 moves to a path behind tee box for 7 and essentially is an extended 7. 4? 5-7 I believe are some of the existing holes, don't quote me but maybe 12-14? 2 new holes behind existing basket 15, hyzer into 15 and keep going that's where next tee will be, another one coming back toward existing 16. 17 stays the same, and 18 looks to be from where pin 5 is, set back a bit through to where tee box for 4 is, maybe back a bit further.
Feel free to go walk around and check it out, excited to have a new layout to play!

Brad Harris · Post by **Brad Harris** » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:46 pm

That sounds great, really significant redesign. I can't wait to check it out!

Mike Davis · Post by **Mike Davis** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:46 am

You should really leave 9 alone, its a great hole as is!

Alan MacLean · Post by **Alan MacLean** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:17 pm

Though I can understand the desire to change 1-9 as it truly is a pitch/putt front 9, I'm sad to hear about the changes. I had walked the woods with a friend who also was in touch with the Pelham P&R Crew and we had discussed potential improvements for the course without ruining the family friendly front 9. Plus as an intermediate/advanced player, there's nothing better to boost the confidence after a rough tourney than going to Pelham and throwing a 47 for a score.

If the front 9 was left alone, the following holes could be added to the back to make this place a 27 hole course:

(Bear with me, I'm describing this as I scribble my memories on a piece of paper)

- Hole 10 remains untouched.

- Take Hole 11 and split it into two holes. The clearing of the area to drive is nice but is still a tough 4. We wondered what people would think about adding a basket halfway between the walking path crossing (the path from the playground gate) and the current basket. This would still be a long hole for this course (~400') and wouldn't require one tree to be touched.

- New Hole 12 would be the "alternate lane" on current 11 (the parallel fairway to the left) all the way to the current 11 basket. Tee could be before or after the walking path.

- Hole 13 would be current Hole 12. Untouched.

- Hole 14 would be current Hole 13. Untouched.

- Hole 15 would be current Hole 14. Untouched (but we need a new tee box).

- New Hole 16 would start adjacent to the tee of what is Currently #13. There are two lanes here that point away behind Current #13s tee. New #16 would be the one on the right going out.

- New Hole 17 would be the lane on the left that comes back... bringing you right into the area of Current #14 basket/ Current #15 tee.

- Hole 18 would be current Hole 15.

- Hole 19 would be on a little path that would be in need of widening but would run uphill on a small trail that comes down to the basket of current Hole 15.

- Hole 20 would be a downhill shot starting near Current Hole 14's tee. This would go down to the road that passes Current 15's basket. Would require a lot of brush removal.

- Hole 21 Would play back up the road towards Current 15's basket.

(This is where my memory get's foggy)

- Holes 22-24 would be in the woods "behind" Current hole #16. There's a small trail to the left of the trail that brings you to Current #16's tee. We wanted a few holes in there that involved the brook.

- Holes 25-27 would be Current Holes 16-18 respectively.

By doing all this, you've created the 18 hole course you wanted (very Devens-esque... 275' holes on average, tight, wooded, elevation in play) while keeping the family friendly front-9 intact. I always imagine how much fun it would be to take my son to the front 9 in a few years when he gets a little older. I'd hate to see the short holes go on a course that's known for that. Right between the basket of Hole #10 and the tee of Hole #11 there's a trail to a blue ranch-style house. I had 3 offers in on it (including full asking price + 1 tiny condition which was effing rejected). If I was living on that course, I'd be 100% against ruining the front 9 as it is. Because I'm not a Pelham tax payer, I guess my $0.02 is worth just about that. I'd be happy to help since Pelham is where I learned to play and I'd love to give back, but I'd be very sad to say the least if we try to make this a course that ends up being a bust.

Matt Stroika · Post by **Matt Stroika** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:24 pm

Put short tees in on all 18 and now you have 18 holes for experienced players and 18 family friendly holes. Problem solved. These changes make we want to come check it out now so that I can see how much has changed.

Yeah Roy Doar!

Alan MacLean · Post by **Alan MacLean** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:34 pm

Mike Davis wrote:You should really leave 9 alone, its a great hole as is!

9 is a great hole. Perfect tee placement too with that tree there. I'll even go as far as saying Holes 5-7 are great because although they're short, they're not 100% dueces everytime.

Every hole on the front 9 is ace-able. My first Ace ever was on Hole 1. I've hit metal on 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 9 (9 was the same round as the ace, and I called it too... smashed it too hard and it lipped out

). I've seen one kid ace #7 three times. But if you miss the ace on a lot of those, the come back is not that easy.

Holes 2-4 are pretty much dueces every time... but like I said, it's getting -3/-4 in the first 4 holes that make Pelham so fun. Even if my thoughts in my previous post aren't a possibility because no one wants to help raise the $ for 9 more baskets, all that needs to be done are clearing trees and moving back the tees of 2-4. 3 if it was back another 50' and down the hill, that suddenly becomes a very tough blind deuce run. And Tee #4 can be moved back a bunch.

Brad Harris · Post by **Brad Harris** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:11 pm

Matt Stroika wrote:Put short tees in on all 18 and now you have 18 holes for experienced players and 18 family friendly holes. Problem solved.

Very true. If you put in an additional nine holes, most people will want to play all 27 regardless. Even with a sufficiently difficult 18 hole course, the 9 easy holes will still draw complaints.

Mike Davis wrote:You should really leave 9 alone, its a great hole as is!

Nine is still a par 2 hole. A decent drive will give you an easy putt for deuce. Minor mistakes leave you short or in the woods on either side where a putt is still make-able. It takes a major mistake to end up with a four. Not to mention, the basket and tee at virtually the same elevation is a bit of a waste of the hill.

Alan MacLean · Post by **Alan MacLean** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:29 pm

Even with a sufficiently difficult 18 hole course, the 9 easy holes will still draw complaints.

It also will draw compliments from newbies, families, kids, grandparents, those bringing people w/ special needs to the course...etc. I've got 3 people hooked to the game from the front 9 because it's so friendly. The back 9 they felt was aggrivating because it was "so tough" for them.

I'd make a guess that less than 10% of those that play Pelham shoot under par (54). Making it tougher will satisfy the better player (far less in quantity) and aggrivate everyone else trying to learn.

Pelham is the perfect beginners course. Not every course needs to be Maple Hill.

Alan MacLean · Post by **Alan MacLean** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:37 pm

Also, looking to make the course tougher? Safari it!

When no one is on the front 9, we've done the following before...

1) Hole 1 as-is
2) Tee 2 to Basket 6
3) Tee 3 to Basket 5
4) Hole 6 as-is
5) Hole 7 as-is
6) Tee 8 to Basket 3 or 4
7) Tee 4 to Basket 6 or 7
8) Hole 8 as-is if just played to Basket 7. If Basket 6 before, Tee 7 to Basket 8 (allows the lane wide right past 7's basket as well)
9) Hole 9 as-is

Roy Doar · Post by **Roy Doar** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:40 pm

alan, get my pm? email me royaloft@gmail.com ...

Mike Davis · Post by **Mike Davis** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:55 pm

I couldn't make it up, how did it turn out? Is it finished?

Jeff_Streeter · Post by **Jeff_Streeter** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:00 pm

Great job on the redesign it's like a whole new course.

Nate Spear · Post by **Nate Spear** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:34 pm

I've got to say it's a lot different than it was, makes use of so much more of the property than it did. All of the tee boxes, and baskets have been moved and most of the signage has been moved. It's pretty easy to follow and no problem after you've played it a few times a bit more trimming of a few fairways need to be done this week. 18 tee is the hardest to find but it's up next to #3 basket. I love his course, go play it now!

Trent Solomon · Post by **Trent Solomon** » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:41 pm

anyone got a map?

Chuck Deb · Post by **Chuck Deb** » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:27 pm

I like the new layout, its much more challenging. I had the pleasure of playing with StreeterJ and his friend on Thursday. Good to meet you guys. Here is a map I made of the course. Keep in mind that on the map hole 9 and hole 16 are actually longer but I ran out of space.

Brad Harris · Post by **Brad Harris** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:48 am

Played the new layout yesterday. I like it a lot. It isn't so crazy difficult that it will intimidate beginners, and it offers sufficient challenge to keep more advanced players interested. My only gripe is hole 15. That hole is garbage. There's no reason anyone should ever get anything other than a three. Lay a putter out to the corner, long putt to the basket, tap in for par.

Matt Stroika · Post by **Matt Stroika** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:28 am

Brad Harris wrote:Played the new layout yesterday. I like it a lot. It isn't so crazy difficult that it will intimidate beginners, and it offers sufficient challenge to keep more advanced players interested. My only gripe is hole 15. That hole is garbage. There's no reason anyone should ever get anything other than a three. Lay a putter out to the corner, long putt to the basket, tap in for par.

Without ever playing it but hearing this description and seeing the picture on the map, it is certainly a contender for the W.H.I.N.E award. Worst Hole In New England. Horseshoe shaped holes w/o alternatives are garbage. Forcing a placement shot with a putter to a layup area off the tee is always stupid design. That being said, I can't wait to finally get up to Pelham to play. The old layout was not intriguing enough to make it worth my time to try it but it looks like it is fairly challenging now.

Brad Harris · Post by **Brad Harris** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:56 am

Matt Stroika wrote:Without ever playing it but hearing this description and seeing the picture on the map, it is certainly a contender for the W.H.I.N.E award. Worst Hole In New England.

Agreed. It's not even a tough up shot, it's maybe 50 feet to the corner and then another 50 to the basket. You might get a 2 if you can hit a long putt, otherwise it's a three. I tried to sneak through the corner and almost made it, but in the summer when the trees fill in, that will not be an option.

The rest of the course is definitely worth playing though. Every hole is reachable from the tee, so there are plenty of deuce opportunities out there. They're long and tight enough that you do have to have a good shot in order to reach it though.

Alan MacLean · Post by **Alan MacLean** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:44 am

Without knowing about the W.H.I.N.E. name, I already crowned it this the other day. But unlike the others above I wasn't too happy with the changes at all.
http://forums.nefa.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8016

I technically named it TWHIANE - The Worst Hole In All New England.

BTW, the only way to deuce it is to line up 45 degrees on the tee, and hit a tiny tomahawk through a small opening about 90' long directly to the basket.

Brad Harris · Post by **Brad Harris** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:30 pm

Alan MacLean wrote:BTW, the only way to deuce it is to line up 45 degrees on the tee, and hit a tiny tomahawk through a small opening about 90' long directly to the basket.

That opening will probably close when summer greenery fills in...

Nate Spear · Post by **Nate Spear** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:45 pm

I've got to say that 15 is the one hole I would change for sure. The dog leg at Barnstead has driven me nuts for years but has kind of grown on me. Not too sure about WHINE but it's bad enough to change. Suggestions are encouraged, there are still flags and stakes around the course, pick a few up and leave them where you think 15 should go! There is a work day on Friday April 22nd and suggestions (Alan) are needed for where to place alternate tees for the tiny tots of disc golf to play from.

Roy Doar · Post by **Roy Doar** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:15 pm

just spent an hour responding at the "workday" thread ... Matt, I respect your opinion, among others ... #15 WILL be fixed

Matt Stroika · Post by **Matt Stroika** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:32 pm

Roy Doar wrote:just spent an hour responding at the "workday" thread ... Matt, I respect your opinion, among others ... #15 WILL be fixed

I never saw it so my opinion doesn't count. Looking forward to playing the course Roy.

Karl Molitoris · Post by **Karl Molitoris** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:55 pm

We all have a bias toward that which we succeed at. Having said that, maybe it's just YOU (who ever YOU are) that can't 2 it! Maybe it needs a deft roller to get there. Maybe a scoobie skipper. Who knows....
And just because you can't 2 it doesn't mean someone with more skill wouldn't find this THE 'differentiator" on the course (to separate s/he from everyone else).

Place a bounty on it! Who ever does get a 2 gets some prize.

I've never seen the hole but maybe it's just a "different" hole 8-)

. We're all different in SOME way(s) :shock:

.

Karl

Titan Bariloni · Post by **Titan Bariloni** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:43 am

looks woodsy

how long is 15? roller?

Alan MacLean · Post by **Alan MacLean** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:49 am

Karl, Titan,

#15 probably plays 160'. 80' straight off the tee is the obvious shot. From there the hole takes more than a 90 degree turn right with another ~80' to the basket. It's a horseshoe layout and the fairway is TIGHT, especially at the end where even a Hummer would have trouble getting through. You basically go out to come back. That's why the deuce is close to impossible.

Karl, you gave me an invaluable roller lesson at FlatRock a year or two ago. There's no roller there (especially with the ground). A skipper still has an outward vector even when bending the hardest. You need something that would turn about 100-120 degrees and then go straight for 40' just to have a reasonable putt. The only "easy" deuce is to tomahawk something through the thickest of trees. There's a tiny opening without the trees grown in right now. But still a very tough shot. Hit it though and you're within 20'. This will be open for another few weeks and then it's gone.

Karl Molitoris · Post by **Karl Molitoris** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:17 am

Alan,

I appreciate the more complete description of the hole and I'm not saying it's NOT an "odd" hole. I guess what I'm saying is two-fold.
1) Until I try it I'll have reservations as to if I can deuce it, and
2) More importantly, I've seen holes (while playing in other parts of the world / country with players a LOT better than me) that have been "negotiated" in a stroke (or 2) less than me via routes that I never even saw...and if I did, I still wouldn't have believed possible.

Again, not to say 15 isn't weird, but even those types of hole serve purposes*.

Karl
Ps: Even though no one here would EVER admit to succumbing to such 8-)

, but I've seen at tournaments with my own eyes (more than once) where the group's just finished playing the most boring / "stupid" / non-score-spreading hole imaginable. The 3 guys are squacking about it all the way to the next hole. First guy gets up (still squacking about it) and hits first available! I'd say that "stupid" hole served its purpose...even if it was just to take the concentration away from 1 player for 1 shot

.

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