Putt...must be balanced till disc cease to move?

[Andrew Sleeth]

I had a put hit the front of the basket then roll back down the hill directly at me...am I allowed to move out of the way or is that a penalty stroke?...if it hits me is that a penalty stroke?

[Brad Harris]

I believe the rule just says you have to maintain balance behind the lie, not necessarily stay still. So you could move out of the way as long as you never support yourself in front of your lie.

If you interfere with the disc while it is rolling, I think it's actually a two stroke penalty.

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but if you do fall forward in front of your lie, it is just a warning and re-throw for the first occurance. So in theory, before the disc comes to rest, you could fault and convince someone in your group to call you and another to secnod it. Then you'd get a second throw from that spot without a penalty.

[Josh Connell]

First, the disc moving/rolling has nothing to do with determining whether a player has maintained balance. It has nothing to do with anything else for that matter, other than determining your next lie when it finally comes to rest. If you intentionally stay in its path and it hits you, Brad is correct, it's a two stroke penalty. So by all means, if the disc is rolling to you, get out of the way.

If you commit a falling putt, intentionally or not, it is a warning and a re-throw on the first offense. But keep in mind, in order to have the violation called, it must come within three seconds of the violation (and again, what the disc is doing has nothing to do with it). So there's no "convincing" someone to call you on a violation. Either they call it immediately or the opportunity is lost.

However, there's nothing in the rules that say you can't call yourself on a stance violation (falling putt, foot fault, etc). But good luck finding someone to second a self-call if you are clearly doing it to save a stroke or avoid further penalty somehow. Some might even argue that you are "willfully attempting to circumvent the rules of play" with your intentional foot fault ploy, which according to the PDGA rulebook, is the definition of cheating.

[Mike Dussault]

During the Blue to blue round on Sunday at the SF I called myself on a foot fault on a missed putt. I called it immediately as it happened, and the call was seconded by someone in my threesome. Bonus! I made the subsequent re-throw. Thankfully I did not have another foot fault violation for the remainder of the round. Never have made the call on myself before, but I fell forward as I released and I instinctively made the correct call.

[Titan Bariloni]

can you call a violation on yourself..and can you second someone on yourself..?

had a similar situation this weekend

[Dave McHale]

you can call it yourself, and you can second a call made against you. however, see josh's last paragraph in his previous post ^^^

[Matt Aubin]

I had a put hit the front of the basket then roll back down the hill directly at me...am I allowed to move out of the way or is that a penalty stroke?...if it hits me is that a penalty stroke?

IMHO, the rules on this are very 'grey area.' i started my own thread about it, and that thread led to links on rules and other threads etc etc... and what it comes down to is intention.

If a rolling away putt hits another person or bag, it's interference. player gets a re-throw.

If a roller hits a person who intentionally stops it (someone being 'nice' to help you)... penalty.

If a roller hits you, the thrower, as you maintain balance.... penalty. you should get out of the way.

If it hits your bag... penalty.

WHAT IF...

it rolls back so fast you don't have time to react? that is not intentional, and there is no penalty for non-intentional interference. You can't be expected to 'disappear' after every putt attempt.

what if you try to get the hell out of the way, and the disc hits a rock and bounces toward you? you tried to move, the disc followed you. that is surely unintentional. no, sorry... penalty.

what if you are putting from a knee? do you really have to flop out of the way?

what if you are an older (really older) player? sure it's nit-picking, but you can't expect someone who is, uh, up in years to spring out of the way. unfair advantage to younger players.

IMHO, other players, bags and equipment should be included in interference calls, obviously. BUT, a thrower and his/her support points (NOT their bag) should be considered 'part of the course' as long as there is no intention to alter the rolling shot (moving your stance to hit the disc.) you cannot expect a player to move on what could be a dangerous slope (hence, the rolling disc, sometimes) to avoid what technically is completely unintentional. a 2 stroke penalty for a thrower not moving has too many grey areas of interpretation.

[Jeff Wiechowski]

You should make an attempt to get yourself, bag, stool, etc. out of the way. It's only a penalty if the interference is willful.

That's how'd I'd call it.

[Shawn Mullen]

I had a put hit the front of the basket then roll back down the hill directly at me...am I allowed to move out of the way or is that a penalty stroke?...if it hits me is that a penalty stroke?

IMHO, the rules on this are very 'grey area.' i started my own thread about it, and that thread led to links on rules and other threads etc etc... and what it comes down to is intention.

If a rolling away putt hits another person or bag, it's interference. player gets a re-throw.
If a roller hits a person who intentionally stops it (someone being 'nice' to help you)... penalty.

If a roller hits you, the thrower, as you maintain balance.... penalty. you should get out of the way.

If it hits your bag... penalty.

WHAT IF...

it rolls back so fast you don't have time to react? that is not intentional, and there is no penalty for non-intentional interference. You can't be expected to 'disappear' after every putt attempt.

what if you try to get the hell out of the way, and the disc hits a rock and bounces toward you? you tried to move, the disc followed you. that is surely unintentional. no, sorry... penalty.

what if you are putting from a knee? do you really have to flop out of the way?

what if you are an older (really older) player? sure it's nit-picking, but you can't expect someone who is, uh, up in years to spring out of the way. unfair advantage to younger players.

IMHO, other players, bags and equipment should be included in interference calls, obviously. BUT, a thrower and his/her support points (NOT their bag) should be considered 'part of the course' as long as there is no intention to alter the rolling shot (moving your stance to hit the disc.) you cannot expect a player to move on what could be a dangerous slope (hence, the rolling disc, sometimes) to avoid what technically is completely unintentional. a 2 stroke penalty for a thrower not moving has too many grey areas of interpretation.

My interpretation was that it was only a re-throw if the disc was hit intentionally by another player. For example you are putting and everyone is standing downhill behind you. Putt rolls and hits one of their bags. This isn't interference, it wasn't intentional you as the putter agreed to throw under those circumstances and deal with the consequences. It happend to me at Sugarbush and that's the call the TD made.

My situation was even worse than just hitting someones bag. The players were all behind me, I was putting uphill on a steep slope, disc hit the yellow band and rolled toward the players. They saw it coming and tried to move, as they were attempting to get out of the way the disc was actually picked up and shot into the air off one of their bags as they were picking it up, it went about 100 feet down the hill. I played a privisional and played the disc from where it went ALLLLLLLLLL the way back down the hill. The TD did a lot of checking and ruled that it wasn't a re-throw or penalty (as the thrower I agreed to throw under those circumstances). I was stuck taking the higher score on the shot that happened to go 100 feet away down hill.

Bottom line if you are another player and your intention isn't to interfer with the shot. Don't move at all even if the disc is coming at you.

Interference is only the call if it's intentional.

[Matt Stroika]

If you see the disc coming at you and you don't move, is that not intent? There are definitely grey areas in this rule.

[Shawn Mullen]

[Matt Aubin]

you're right Shawn, my bad, but that just clarifies my point: a non-throwing player cannot move out of the way, or it's intentional interference (even if they try to get out of the way and fail). If the thrower doesn't move out of the way, it's interference.

Reminds me of that bank robbery scene in Raising Arizona:

"All right, ya hayseeds, it's a stick-up. Everybody freeze. Everybody down on the ground."

"Well, which is it, young feller? You want I should freeze or get down on the ground? Mean to say, if'n I freeze, I can't rightly drop. And if'n I drop, I'm a-gonna be in motion. You see... "

[Matt Stroika]

Nice quote from Raising Arizona. Good movie.

[Dave McHale]

you're right Shawn, my bad, but that just clarifies my point: a non-throwing player cannot move out of the way, or it's intentional interference (even if they try to get out of the way and fail). If the thrower doesn't move out of the way, it's interference.

That's the completely wrong take-away here Aubin. Not to mention there's also a difference between "intentional interference" and "self defense". Let's say I'm spotting a hole for my group and a disc thrown by one of my group-mates takes a bad tree kick and comes right at me from only 8 feet away... you can be damn right that as I'm dodging, I'm ALSO trying to protect myself with my hands. If the disc hits me and stops, it wasn't "intentional interference" on my part. Also, if you as the thrower don't move out of the way *but your group believes you could have and chose not to*, only THEN is it going to be called "interference" on your part since it would be deemed intentional. Again, it's all about "intent".

[Matt Aubin]

but that's the point... what defines intent, and why should we as players have to make that decision? If it was my intent to get out of the way, and I fail, why should I be penalized?

why have the thrower require to move out of the way, but have others required to stand still?

About your example of being hit and defending yourself, that was addressed specifically at the bottom of this:

http://www.pdga.com/interference-rule

Unfortunately, there's no clarification about roll away shots, that I'm aware of. That's what I'm talking about. I think.

In re-reading 803.07A, there is mention of every type of incidental interference besides that from the actual thrower. In 803.07C, there is an attempt at clarification to note that a conscious alteration of the disc flight (or roll) results in the 2 stroke penalty, such as saving a roll away from going in the water if it's inevitable. You HAVE to let it roll into the water.

What it does not clarify is whether a thrower standing still after a shot is intentionally standing in the way, or if they are required to move out of the way at all costs. My argument is that ALL players (thrower included) should have the right to stand still and let the disc roll where it may. If there's movement from the thrower to stop the disc, that is intent and illegal. If there is movement from the other players to move, that is intent (to make the comeback worse) and illegal. Everyone stand still.

There is no reason the thrower should have to run away after putting to avoid a two stroke penalty.

[Josh Connell]

Intent is right in the word "intentional". McHale has it right. You have to have intent to interfere to be penalized. Self-defense isn't intent to interfere. Not getting out of the way when there's no time to react is not intent to interfere. Standing still as you watch the disc move toward you with enough time to move probably should be viewed as intent to interfere.

But here's the often overlooked part about bags left on the ground and intent to interfere. The rule specifically says "Players shall not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur." So it can be argued that on a hole with a slope, standing downhill of or especially leaving a bag downhill of the basket where a disc could easily roll to is bordering on being intentional according to the rules. If you're standing there, you can reasonably get out of the way of a rolling disc, so it's not really that big a deal. But leaving your bag on the ground, so the possibility of what Shawn described can happen, is dicey. The mere choice of setting the bag down could be enough intent to earn you penalty strokes should a disc in motion hit the bag. Not because you set it there for the expressed reason of stopping a disc, but because you set it there despite the rules specifically saying you aren't allowed.

And I don't buy the whole "the thrower implicitly agrees with bags left where they can interfere by not asking for them to be moved" point of view either. Your bag is YOUR responsibility, not mine. If you set it down, you're accepting the consequences if the bag subsequently interferes with a moving disc. I am allowed ask you to move it, per the rules, but I am not required by the rules to ask for its removal if interference is possible, and therefore not accepting the possibility of interference if I don't ask.

I'd have ruled differently in Shawn's situation were I the TD, and the player who couldn't get their bag moved in time and catapulted the disc 100 feet down the hill wouldn't have liked it much at all. He'd have gotten the 2-stroke penalty and Shawn would have been allowed his re-throw from the previous lie. And my interpretation is based solely on the fact that the bag should not have been on the ground in the first place if there was a realistic possibility of a disc rolling back down the hill toward it.

[Josh Connell]

but that's the point... what defines intent, and why should we as players have to make that decision? If it was my intent to get out of the way, and I fail, why should I be penalized?

If it was your intent to get out of the way, and you can't move fast enough to do so, I don't think you should or would be penalized by any rational player or TD. You tried to get out of the way...your intent was to not interfere but it couldn't be helped.

why have the thrower require to move out of the way, but have others required to stand still?

No one's required to do either of those things. The only "requirement" is that they do not intentionally alter the flight/path of the disc. Intent can't be pre-determined in the rule book. It has to be judged in the moment. Hence the rule leaves it to the interpretation of the players on the scene.

About your example of being hit and defending yourself, that was addressed specifically at the bottom of this:

http://www.pdga.com/interference-rule

Unfortunately, there's no clarification about roll away shots, that I'm aware of. That's what I'm talking about. I think.

In re-reading 803.07A, there is mention of every type of incidental interference besides that from the actual thrower. In 803.07C, there is an attempt at clarification to note that a conscious alteration of the disc flight (or roll) results in the 2 stroke penalty, such as saving a roll away from going in the water if it's inevitable. You HAVE to let it roll into the water.

What it does not clarify is whether a thrower standing still after a shot is intentionally standing in the way, or if they are required to move out of the way at all costs. My argument is that ALL players (thrower included) should have the right to stand still and let the disc roll where it may. If there's movement from the thrower to stop the disc, that is intent and illegal. If there is movement from the other players to move, that is intent (to make the comeback worse) and illegal. Everyone stand still.

There is no reason the thrower should have to run away after putting to avoid a two stroke penalty.

You're right, a player shouldn't have to run away. But they certainly should make an effort to avoid touching the moving disc if they can. That's the key point here. You don't have to avoid contact with the disc at all costs. You simply have to make some kind of effort to avoid the contact if possible. If you attempt to avoid the disc and it still manages to hit you, you didn't consciously alter the flight of the disc and there's no penalty. If you don't have time to react such as in McHale's example or if you're the thrower and the disc bounces right back at you off a tree or whatever, then there is also no conscious attempt at interference and therefore no penalty. But if you stand stock-still and watch a disc slowly roll at you and into your leg, you deserve the penalty whether you are the thrower or another player in the group. You have no right to that spot if there's time to vacate it before the disc makes contact.

[Matt Stroika]

If you see the disc coming at you and you don't move, is that not intent?

Standing still as you watch the disc move toward you with enough time to move probably should be viewed as intent to interfere.

This is what I was talking about Shawn. Thanks for clarifying Josh.

[Shawn Mullen]

I see the pt. Josh did a good job describing it. So much grey area open to interpretation.

[Andrew Sleeth]

wow....I as a newbie started this thread because I wasn't sure what might be the reall rules....I'm still not sure I know that. However, I did move out of the way and will always try my best to move out of the way. As for my bag I didn't even think about it being a penalty.

[Matt Stroika]

There are a lot of rules like this one Andrew. Its been awhile since we had a good rules debate. Nice to see Rules Guru Josh posting again. I think he sleeps with his rule book.

[Josh Connell]

wow....I as a newbie started this thread because I wasn't sure what might be the reall rules....I'm still not sure I know that. However, I did move out of the way and will always try my best to move out of the way. As for my bag I didn't even think about it being a penalty.

Andrew, the official rules of the game can be found at the PDGA's website at http://www.pdga.com/rules/. When in doubt, always go there first. And if you can't interpret the correct ruling for your situation after reading the rules, coming here is a good second step.

There are a lot of rules like this one Andrew. Its been awhile since we had a good rules debate. Nice to see Rules Guru Josh posting again. I think he sleeps with his rule book.

I don't sleep with my rule book, but I do keep a copy on the night stand for those nights when a ruling is needed during my dreams of playing at and (usually) winning the USDGC.

I do, however, go back and read the book cover to cover once in a while, especially when a new edition is published. At the very least by doing that, I have a pretty good idea where to look up a rule for a particular situation. Bookmarking that address above doesn't hurt either.

[Eric Kevorkian]

During the Blue to blue round on Sunday at the SF I called myself on a foot fault on a missed putt. I called it immediately as it happened, and the call was seconded by someone in my threesome. Bonus! I made the subsequent re-throw. Thankfully I did not have another foot fault violation for the remainder of the round. Never have made the call on myself before, but I fell forward as I released and I instinctively made the correct call.

I was called on a foot fault at the fling as well on Hole 6 B-W. They explained to me/showed me where I went wrong...no big deal. I canned it from ~120ft

There was also an incident in which a player in my group foot faulted and he called himself on it. The problem was that everyone else in the group was too far away to second the call...

[Paul Oechsli]

Had a related issue in playing league doubles last year in a playoff at Wick Hole #1.

The first player from the other team tees off and his throw is clearly headed "OB" (for those that don't know the hole it is easy to tell very early on certain drives) and the thrower upon realizing it will go OB calls "foot fault" on himself. Such call is then seconded by his own partner. The player then re-drives and throws it in bounds.

To me the above application is clearly a flaw in this rule as an advantage should never be gained via committing a foul.

[Patrick Barnett]

Had a related issue in playing league doubles last year in a playoff at Wick Hole #1.

The first player from the other team tees off and his throw is clearly headed "OB" (for those that don't know the hole it is easy to tell very early on certain drives) and the thrower upon realizing it will go OB calls "foot fault" on himself. Such call is then seconded by his own partner. The player then re-drives and throws it in bounds.

To me the above application is clearly a flaw in this rule as an advantage should never be gained via committing a foul.

Players who take advantage of this rule have no integrity. It's a punk move by the thrower and her partner for seconding it. s

[Brad Harris]

Had a related issue in playing league doubles last year in a playoff at Wick Hole #1.

The first player from the other team tees off and his throw is clearly headed "OB" (for those that don't know the hole it is easy to tell very early on certain drives) and the thrower upon realizing it will go OB calls "foot fault" on himself. Such call is then seconded by his own partner. The player then re-drives and throws it in bounds.

To me the above application is clearly a flaw in this rule as an advantage should never be gained via committing a foul.

Players who take advantage of this rule have no integrity. It's a punk move by the thrower and her partner for seconding it. s

How about the opponents that see it but don't call it. Are they ethically obligated to call it even if it benefits the thrower to do so?

[Josh Connell]

Had a related issue in playing league doubles last year in a playoff at Wick Hole #1.

The first player from the other team tees off and his throw is clearly headed "OB" (for those that don't know the hole it is easy to tell very early on certain drives) and the thrower upon realizing it will go OB calls "foot fault" on himself. Such call is then seconded by his own partner. The player then re-drives and throws it in bounds.

To me the above application is clearly a flaw in this rule as an advantage should never be gained via committing a foul.

Considering the rule book is written for singles play, and you are describing doubles play, this "flaw" isn't necessarily a fault of the rule book, IMO. Basically...there need to be official doubles rules to supplement the rules of play in situations like this one. Or, at the very least, perhaps consensus on whether a doubles team should be treated as one player or two when it comes to making/seconding a call. It's tricky, to be sure. But not truly a "flaw" in the rule itself.

How about the opponents that see it but don't call it. Are they ethically obligated to call it even if it benefits the thrower to do so?

Ethically, absolutely they are obligated to make EVERY call if they see it, regardless of how it may benefit the player. Does it happen? Hardly ever, unfortunately. The result of the shot should NEVER be a factor in whether a call is made or not. That's why the 3 second time limit is there in the first place.

IMO, if the player sees it, he should immediately say so before even turning to watch the flight of the disc. If all the players in the group are watching as they are instructed to by rule, then the issue of should I/shouldn't I second a call should be moot. If each player has integrity, he won't delay in making the call as soon as he sees it, and the "second" of a call would essentially come from two or three or even four voices calling the violation simultaneously rather than someone having to ask around for a second.

[Mike Dussault]

In reality though, someone in the shule will not be watched by every member of a group. Take into consideration that the players are focusing on their own game, and they might be across the fairway preparing for a shot themselves. If only one player sees a violation, you are relying on the thrower to make the call. You can not honestly expect a group to go into the brush to look for a violation. Golf is a game of honor and integrity. If someone does not play within the rules one would hope it will catch up to them in time.

[Steve Timm]

Shawn, the rules can be your friend, learn all of them
Quote your Silly situation:
"My situation was even worse than just hitting someones bag. The players were all behind me, I was putting uphill on a steep slope, disc hit the yellow band and rolled toward the players. They saw it coming and tried to move, as they were attempting to get out of the way the disc was actually picked up and shot into the air off one of their bags as they were picking it up, it went about 100 feet down the hill. I played a privisional and played the disc from where it went ALLLLLLLLLL the way back down the hill. The TD did a lot of checking and ruled that it wasn't a re-throw or penalty (as the thrower I agreed to throw under those circumstances). I was stuck taking the higher score on the shot that happened to go 100 feet away down hill.

Bottom line if you are another player and your intention isn't to interfer with the shot. Don't move at all even if the disc is coming at you.

Interference is only the call if it's intentional." end quote

If you knew the rules.........
You should have just taken a "rethrow" with a stroke penalty, you retake that putt, miss the yellow band, and make it to complete the hole without all the drama.

This game is simple.

steve timm