New HCC pin placements

[Jay Ducharme]

Kelly and Josh have been doing yeoman's work at HCC, preparing new fairways for the eventual rollout of the re-designed course. As many of you know, HCC will be losing hole 9 probably this year, and hole 10 within a few years. Holes 4, 6, 7 and 8 have been problematic, criss-crossing the heavily-used softball field. I had been toying with a re-design for many years but kept hitting dead ends. Kelly Conroy finally prompted a hard re-thinking of the design. While we'll be losing some of the big open holes, I think the course will be gaining some truly unique ones. I've begun marking some of the proposed new positions. Tees are designated with blue flags; pins are orange stakes. There are only a few for now until after the summer tourney. I don't expect to finalize the new design for another year or so and would love some feedback from the disc golf community. Here's the latest layout:



As you can see, 1, 2 and 3 are the same. Hole 4's tee is just west of the soccer shed and heads toward what's currently basket #7. Hole 5 is a reverse of its current configuration. Hole 6 begins just behind and right of the flagpole, under a maple tree. Hole 9 uses the current #18 basket. Hole 10 starts north of 9's basket and heads for the current #17 basket. Hole 12 starts to the right of the current #15 basket and heads uphill to the basket for current #14. (That's Kelly's favorite hole.) Holes 15, 16 and 17 are the same as current holes 13, 12 and 11 -- but without the grueling walk from current 11 to 12. Hole 18 will be a short "ace run."

[Karl Molitoris]

Jay,

Of course I'll miss the "openness" of some of the front nine , but considering the seeming flow improvement, what you're suggesting here makes sense.
Just make sure that OB is minimized (use only for safety's sake if possible) and strive for a true balance of l to r / r to l / anhy vs. hyz / et al - since now you'll have a predominately 'woodsy course'.

Karl

[Jay Ducharme]

Thanks, Karl. We're really striving to keep a good balance, allowing for a wide variety of shot skills. Although the new course seems more woodsy and there aren't any bomber shots like the current hole 8, the front 9 is still pretty open. The new 7 and 8 are the only really woodsy holes there. It looks at this point that the new course will come up quite a bit shorter than the current one, but I think it will pose new and interesting challenges.

[Karl Molitoris]

Jay,

Played HCC this weekend (keeping in mind your "map" here in this thread). Just a few comments:

1 - 3. The same. OK.
4. I'll assume you'll be using present-7's basket. If yes, pay special attention to where you place the tee for new-4 so that you do NOT have the 'big hyzer route' (out over the softball field) as the primary path. If not, this will make a VERY good hole.
5. The "reverse" of present-5 now. Depending on how close you place the basket to the road / path junction (I'll assume both will play OB and across), this could be a very good "easy 3, gamble/lose and OB" hole. Although if you are TOO close, drive OB (purposefully?!?) and the 'circle-3' is almost guaranteed. Again, figure all this out first. And allow for 'line of sight' for safety reasons.
14. Will there be 'provisions' for getting to new-15's tee pad without climbing up the wall there ?
18. Is the land "down in the gulley" going to be too wet come springtime? Did you consider having new-18 a downhill slight left-to-right from in back of (and slightly higher than) present-11's basket now, finishing down near the western side / middle (N to S) of that back parking lot?

Karl

[Jay Ducharme]

Wish I had known you were around! I would have loved to get together again.

4. You're correct. The tee will be set to the right of the soccer shed. It allows for any shot off the tee.

5. Currently we're thinking of placing the basket toward the left of the sort of gully inside the cluster of small maple trees. It'll be pretty close to the sidewalk.

15. You can walk up the rip-rap or double back to 15's basket where the wall is shin-height.

18. That gulley won't be a problem. It will make a nice OB though. We might have a water hazard for the first time at HCC! The brook flows only to the left of the stone wall; we're staying to the right. That area is fairly dry.

[Jay Ducharme]

I've tweaked the above layout. The changes are a bit more significant from a player's view; a little hard to get a sense of it from the map. All of the new tee areas are currently marked with orange flags. The 8 holes awaiting baskets have been marked with orange stakes. So feel free to print out the map and give the new configuration a try. Let us know what you think.

Thanks to Kelly and Josh for all their hard work, and to Davis and Karl for their sage advice on Saturday.

[Jay Ducharme]

The new tee placements are complete. Next week I'm going to re-paint the pavers to make them more obvious. But the flags help mark them for now. Because of the approaching storm, our plans to begin moving the baskets has been scuttled for now. Hopefully next week, Kelly, Josh and I will be able to complete the new front 9.

Here are the new hole lengths:

[Eric Kretschmar]

Any update on this work? Looking to come play before the tourney, just wondering if the baskets have been relocated...

[Jay Ducharme]

State appropriation is a wonder to behold. The paperwork for the job is filled out. Now we just have to get confirmation numbers and sleeves. We'll have them in for the tourney but it's going to be close...

[Jason Charpentier]

Even though I've played the new layout, throwing to the stakes in the ground, I think it would be interesting for everyone's first round to be the day of the tournament.

[Jay Ducharme]

With the current slow pace of getting the purchase orders approved, that very well may be the case....

[Jay Ducharme]

I just heard from Innova. They've shipped the new sleeves. So (crosses fingers) it looks like we'll have the baskets in on time for the tourney.

[Eric Kretschmar]

Definitely great news... let us know when they are in so we can all come out and get our feet wet.

[Jay Ducharme]

If it keeps raining like it is now, you'll have plenty of chances to get your feet wet.

[Steve Solbo]

MA RULES.

[Patrick Harris]

Played the new revised layout last Sunday.

DON'T LIKE THE NEW ONES!!!

1) Very rough walking pathways from #10 all the way to #18. Most fairways are on the sides of the rocky hills. Seen few people slipped and fell down hard on the rocks couple times, ouch!! Too many leaves covering rocks in the new layouts. You will have to be very careful every steps of the way.

2) Dangerous downhill trek at #11 but I like the downhill drive and was able to deuce it in the first try!

3) Very steep uphill #12, are you expecting people to get down all fours to climb up there? I can't image overweight players struggling to get up there. Even worst going down on #11!!

3) Why #13 tee are right on the parking lot lane? What happen if the car were parked in that spot and the players can't find #13? Is OB on paved road? Is it safe to play if throw from tee to left side island (former #15 tee area) and then layup to #13?

4) Too many roads, sidewalks, and parking lots in play which confuse the players (newbies) about its OB's rules.

5) #7 and #8 are crazy tight and near the private property lines.


I think this new layout will discourage new players and HCC students from playing often. I don't think the women and recreation players will enjoy trekking around this dangerous rocky course.

I do like the old layouts. I think HCC only need to change #4 to #8 while the rest of it are perfectly fine.

Hope in time that the course will look better and accessible for ALL players to play.

[Eric Kretschmar]

Patrick, I am really a "no one" as far as HCC goes, but I feel compelled to respond to this. I appreciate you taking the time to check out the new course and voice your opinions, as opposing points of view only make things better, but I think a few of these points are way off.

1. The actual physical land used for the new 10 - 18 is the same land used for the old 11 - 18. The leaves, rocks, steeps have ALWAYS been there (old layout or new). If you have a problem now, you should of had a problem before the change.
2. I agree with this to an extent, but only if you walked back around towards 10's basket to get down using the approved method. If you went straight down from the tee, then thats your bad, because that is dangerously steep and not approved by Jay.
3. You used to have to come down most of the new 12's hill to get to the basket for the old 15 (or you went the even more difficult way down towards the road). It is using the same land, and it's usually more dangerous going downhill than uphill. If people can't walk through the woods, manage hills, and be safe, then they shouldn't be out playing disc golf at this course, before or after the change. There is (and should be) a basic, minimum standard of physical health to be able to play this game. Some ropes could be added in a few places for the more slippery times of year, but this isn't critical in the current layout in my opinion.
3b. I agree with this parking lot comment, but to the defense of the designers, this is generally a spill over parking lot. I believe that everything left of the curb (all of the parking lot, including the island the old 14 tee was on) is all OB. The tee for the old 9 was actually in a popular parking lot when Jay moved it back... They are stuck in this area of the new 13 by a bunch of parking lots/roads etc. I think they did the best they could to still get 18 holes in losing all the land by the softball/baseball fields.
4. Unfortunately, it's a college campus. Those roads/walkways/parking lots are more vital to the college well being than the disc golf course, and they aren't going anywhere. Jay and company did their best to use the land as appropriately as possible, and Jay does an AMAZING job keeping rules/pictures/etc available to everyone on his website. It is on you to learn where the OB is if you want to play it correctly, or play it however you find most fun.
5. Tight fairways make everyone better, period (and those aren't crazy tight in my opinion, just tighter than the old 5-8.

I apologize if I came across harsh, but I feel very strongly the opposite way on this. I know that Kelly, Jay and company have put in a lot of time and thought to make the best of what they had to work with, and I think they've done a great job with all their decisions and have IMPROVED the course overall.

[Kelly Conroy]

Thanks for the backup Kretchy!

Patrick, what you probably don't fully understand, is that this evolution of HCC was put forth because it was mandatory. We were going to lose old holes 9 and 10 due to college expansion. Tthe fact that there wasn't any way to "slightly alter" those two holes meant that the course needed a near full redesign. Also the softball field has always posed a problem to HCC Disc Golf. If there was ever (and it was frequent) a softball game, practice, or just someone using that field for anything, old holes 6, 7, and 8 had to be skipped. Not fair to someone like yourself who may be driving all the way from Vermont to play.

To respond to your query about the choice of land...there is no other land. Space and better footing is not something that HCC has to work with. We are not like Crane Hill and basically have unlimited options on how to design a course.

Holes 11 and 12 will eventually have aided walkways, but the course just got put in...

Overall these changes are for the better. Keep in mind that disc golf is a minor part of HCC. In this redesign we pulled the course away from any traffic problems with other sports, activities, etc. It is now safer for non-disc golfers as well as golfers themselves.

[David Cook]

Love the new course! A little hard walking now that it is fall. Good job clearing it as well. Good times!

[Jay Ducharme]

The college has industrial-strength leaf blowers. I'm hoping to get out there with one before the snow hits.

[Jay Ducharme]

Chris Barden has an interesting idea for hole 14, taking the fairway through the woods above the road and ending in a 90 degree left dogleg toward the basket on the other side of the road. It would most likely end up being an epic par 5, but would also be one more unique hole on this increasingly eclectic course. All it would require is a tee position change -- and a lot of clearing. What I like about the idea is that currently there are three nearly identical holes in a row: 13, 14 and 15 all follow along pavement and then dive into a lightly wooded area. They're nothing overly exciting and were mainly an attempt to tie the course back over to what's now hole 15. Hole 13 is a mercifully short (though tricky) shot after the grueling test of hole 12. Hole 14 right now is just a longer version of 15. So Chris' changes could give 14 a unique character that isn't replicated anywhere else on the course (or probably anywhere else in New England).

I'll keep you posted on the progress and let you know when it's ready to try out.

Jay

[Jay Ducharme]

When this rain finally stops, I'll be trying out a compromise tee position for 14, moving it up onto the hill. It won't be the route Chris was planning, but it'll be an experiment to see what people think of that tee position compared to being down near the road.

Also, I'm moving the tee for 13 back behind the guard rail, getting it off of the pavement.

Jay

[Jay Ducharme]

I've cleared the area where the new tee for 14 will go. I took down everything I could with my loppers. I'll need a saw to take down the few remaining saplings in the way. (A chainsaw could do it in a few minutes.)

I also repositioned the tee for 13, moving it back behind the guard rail. Kelly pointed out to me that on the old tee, players were teeing off from out-of-bounds. The same is currently true of tee 2, which eventually will be moved back to its old position in front of the fire hydrant. Since it looks like we'll be going with Flypads for tees, it makes no sense to have just two tees on asphalt.

[Ed Faits]

Chainsawing complete on the 14th tee. Great spot for the new tee.

[Jay Ducharme]

Thanks, Ed!

[Jay Ducharme]

I cleaned up hole 14 a bit more, and it's looking really nice. It's amazing how the new elevated tee completely changes the feel of that hole. I'm pretty satisfied with the course now. Hole 12 still needs some thinning, and leaves need to be cleared from the back 9. But other than that, we're in pretty good shape.

[Jay Ducharme]

I met Karl up there today. We had a long chat about the course and from that I'm going to be once again re-locating the tee for 13. I'm also going to talk with Kelly about a relocation of the 12th tee.

[Kyle Moriarty]

Interesting about another move to 13 tee, Would you move it to one of the parking lot islands like the old 14?

And where are you thinking about moving 12 to? You gonna keep that hole as hard right?

[Jay Ducharme]

Moving it to an island is actually an interesting idea. Hmmmm.... I'll have to play around with that one.

I was going to move it further back near the big rock that used to be in the fairway of the old 15. That would make for a really challenging drive over that sea of asphalt. Karl's concern (and rightly so) was that in its current spot people will collide with the guard rail on a follow-thru.

I was thinking of moving the 12th tee to the left of its current position. Right now the area has a tangle of saplings there, but they can be easily removed. The ground is higher and level, and most importantly the slight shift provides for a more open drive up the huge hill. There's a clear avenue, which would need a sharp hyper to negotiate. It also takes the brush pile out-of-play (except for a bad drive).

The course has gone from being a mostly backhand course (for a righty) to a predominantly flick-heavy course. The shift on 12 would balance that out a bit with a drive that favors a strong hyzer.

[Kyle Moriarty]

How much room would there be to work with with moving the tee on 12 back behind that drainage pool and make 12 a little bit longer and a par 4. I was just thinking about that with Eric. I'm not sure of what the land is like and the amount of labor it would take to make a fairway from there to the current one.