HCC complaints

[Jay Ducharme]

The administration at HCC has received complaints from neighbors that disc golfers have been entering their backyards. I assume that would be on hole 7. I find this odd, since the fairway is a good 50-100 feet from the property line and is lined with trees. But I guess a bad throw could conceivably knock a disc into a neighbor's yard.

If you have had that problem, or know someone who has, let me know. I might have to move the fairway further west.

[Travis Reed]

Yeah, definitely on 7. The problem is that the tip of the corner of the dogleg comes too close to the yards. A (righty) backhand that gets turned over, or an anny flick that starts to fade too soon can easily end up near, or apparently in, those yards. If you're already getting complaints it would probably be a good idea to consider moving it.

[Jay Ducharme]

Thanks, Travis.

[Eric Kretschmar]

Why are people so fussy about their yards? I grew up with a neighbor who would always yell at me if my soccer ball rolled into his yard, whether or not I went to pick it up. People and their yards suck. If you are respectful, walk in, walk out, what is the big f'n deal? Lawns can handle a few people walking on them. These neighbors have nothing better to do than sit at home during the day and watch out their back window for discs that come close to their property. If people are being rude (yelling, throwing butts, vandalizing) that's one thing and a legitimate complaint, but come on, give me a break. I'd love to see if any of the complaints have any yard to stand on........

I'm changing the title of this one to "help find old bored retirees a hobby, and teach em how to drive"

[Jay Ducharme]

Unfortunately, Eric, that's the attitude that would shut down the course. The neighbors were there before the course. And I don't know how the disc golfers behaved on their property. But I wonder if the neighbors would have been happier looking out their back windows and seeing a parking lot instead of woods. (A parking lot at one point had been planned for where holes 7 and 8 now are.)

And I still think the neighbors might have a misunderstanding of where their property lines are. They use the HCC property to dump their grass clippings and brush. They might think it's part of their yard.

[Patrick Harris]

Add O/B ropes along #7 will show the neighbors whose properties they are on....

[Eric Kretschmar]

Add O/B ropes along #7 will show the neighbors whose properties they are on....

This is a great idea. Sorry if I came across harsh Jay, this one just hits a nerve with me. I think it should be clearly defined where HCC owns and where the neighbors own. A rope would add clarity, and you could put up signs along the rope saying to stay out, no trespassing, etc. People might actually start throwing the control midrange/putter off the tee like they should if going right is this big a problem. The last thing we would want is to lose the course, but at the same time, the course has as much right to be at HCC as the neighbors have to keep people off their yards. If we all play nice in the sandbox, no one will get sand in their eyes.

[Jay Ducharme]

I chatted with the athletics director. Another idea we had is for the grounds crew to plant arbor vitae or thujas along the stone fence. In a few years, the fairway would be completely screened from the neighbors' views. And there would be no way for discs to stray off the property.

[Karl Molitoris]

All that you've said Jay could be done, I'm sure...

..AND / OR you could move the tee down to the corner (about 70'). Right now the hole goes NE followed by a turn to the left and then heads due N. If you move the tee so the whole hole plays only N, there would be NO possibility of a NE-bound shot careening due E towards their yards. And you'd be eliminating that funky angle anyway.
I know you'd like to keep it a par-4, but I'd rather have a GOOD par-3 than a weird par-4 anyday (and if you must, you could find some other hole to "extend" into another par-4).

Karl

[Kelly Conroy]

All that you've said Jay could be done, I'm sure...

..AND / OR you could move the tee down to the corner (about 70'). Right now the hole goes NE followed by a turn to the left and then heads due N. If you move the tee so the whole hole plays only N, there would be NO possibility of a NE-bound shot careening due E towards their yards. And you'd be eliminating that funky angle anyway.
I know you'd like to keep it a par-4, but I'd rather have a GOOD par-3 than a weird par-4 anyday (and if you must, you could find some other hole to "extend" into another par-4).

Karl

In the same note Karl, why don't you just find a way to go back in time, do all the work that Josh, Joe, Jacob and myself did, and design the course to your liking...that would eliminate any problems that you have with so many of the holes.

[Kelly Conroy]

Jay, do what you want with the course. I'm done listening to the complaints and criticism from the public. This is what happens when you open to others' ideas.

[Karl Molitoris]

Kelly,

I'll assume you're just having a bad day. If you're not willing to read other's opinions what are you doing on a MB? And I fully understand that the people who actually do the work are the people who have the last say (well, those people and the rightful "owners" of the course). So you'll get your wish. That you've spent more time on the course than I probably entitles you to "more input". Cool.

In the end Jay knows I mean well, that it's just 1 person's opinion (mine, in this case), and he will do what HE believes is best. I'm fine with that as he's earned that right (as champion of that course). It's too bad you take other's opinions so personally.

Karl

[Kelly Conroy]

Kelly,

I'll assume you're just having a bad day. If you're not willing to read other's opinions what are you doing on a MB? And I fully understand that the people who actually do the work are the people who have the last say (well, those people and the rightful "owners" of the course). So you'll get your wish. That you've spent more time on the course than I probably entitles you to "more input". Cool.

In the end Jay knows I mean well, that it's just 1 person's opinion (mine, in this case), and he will do what HE believes is best. I'm fine with that as he's earned that right (as champion of that course). It's too bad you take other's opinions so personally.

Karl

Karl, all you do is constantly offer ideas on how to "improve" the course. FYI, when it came to the redisign the aforementioned did ALL the work...not just some, so we are most definitely entitled to OUR opinion. Last I checked, you didn't help...

[Kenji Cline]

Why all the Karl hate lately? Kelly if your gonna do course work and design some holes you need to have a thicker skin. It's just an opinion lighten up. I personally like the hole as is. And think that the arborvitaes idea is the best solution. What really needs help there is the tees. I hope you guys get the grant to improve them. I realize they are mostly new. So don't bash me from the opinion. I know in time they will get better as well. Overall I think you guys did a great job on the redesign much better than the old layout.

[Kelly Conroy]

Why all the Karl hate lately? Kelly if your gonna do course work and design some holes you need to have a thicker skin. It's just an opinion lighten up. I personally like the hole as is. And think that the arborvitaes idea is the best solution. What really needs help there is the tees. I hope you guys get the grant to improve them. I realize they are mostly new. So don't bash me from the opinion. I know in time they will get better as well. Overall I think you guys did a great job on the redesign much better than the old layout.

Kenji I don't hate Karl, and trust me...thick skin is something I have pleny of, but Karl has IMO offered too many "ideas" to change the layout of the course. I have listened to plenty of opinions on the new layout, agree with some, and disagree with others. This is a subject that perhaps you aren't too familiar with, and perhaps don't know everything about the history here.

Edited
P.S. People have to understand that there isn't much available land to work with at HCC and we had to redesign the course with very little resources and space. I think we did as good of a job as we could given those circumstances. The only way that the course could be altered is by a complete 18 hole move to the back woods.

[Kenji Cline]

Kelly let Karl talk to he's blue in the face. You and Jay and the other locals are the ones out there doing the work and you guys are gonna do what you feel is in the best interest in the course. That's a good thing just thought you were a little harsh. Keep up the good work there the course is improving greatly!

[Kelly Conroy]

Kelly let Karl talk to he's blue in the face. You and Jay and the other locals are the ones out there doing the work and you guys are gonna do what you feel is in the best interest in the course. That's a good thing just thought you were a little harsh. Keep up the good work there the course is improving greatly!

Perhaps a bit harsh. Yes, perhaps. His idea of changing hole 7, which I beleive is our best hole, pissed me off a little. I do, however, appreciate the compliment, and trust me, nobody agrees with you more about the teeboxes than me.

[Eric Kretschmar]

The only reason any of this came up was because of complaints by neighbors (and if people are on their property at all, whether we agree with the complaining or not, they have a right to complain and get people off their land). A redesign of that area (7 - 8) could be a potential fix. Planting tall trees could be a potential fix. Talking with the neighbors, putting up rope/signs/guard camels/paying large men to stand on the edge of the HCC property and keep us awful disc golfers out of the yards... these are all possibilities. The only thing that matters is getting the neighbors happy and keeping the course open. And ultimately, that decision should start with HCC/Jay and trickle down to whoever he sees fit (obviously Kelly if any sort of redesign was necessary). Let's not forget the whole point of this is getting the neighbors happy, because whether we like it or not, they DO have all the power here.

For what it's worth, everyone I've talked to likes the redesign too (I love it), and I think you (Kelly) and Jay both know that.

[Jay Ducharme]

I value everyone's ideas for the course. Kelly pushed me into re-thinking the entire design. He and Josh have done great work coming up with ideas and doing the bulk of the work needed. Chris, Davis and John all gave me some insights. And I do highly value Karl's opinions.

But all of that gets filtered through my little brain. I usually will sit with it for a while, ponder it and try to make decisions that please as many disc golfers as possible -- and also myself. I was telling Kelly that I hadn't played the course much lately. I felt it had become more of a "pro" course; the challenge was too much for my skill level. I wish I had more time to get out to practice and get better, but I simply don't. So it was bittersweet. I was happy that more players enjoyed it but at the same time I no longer enjoyed it. So I've been tweaking it here and there to make it more enjoyable for myself, and by doing that I hope to make it more enjoyable for others of my skill level. After all, the whole point of the HCC course was to introduce the community to the sport. That's been successful; I love watching families out on the course together, just playing a casual round. I don't want to lose that aspect of the course.

On the other hand, I do want more experienced players to enjoy it as well. I think the course is close to striking that difficult balance. I was really surprised how high the scores were in the last two doubles tourneys. I'm really interested to see what happens in this summer's single's tourney. So the course (particularly the new holes) will continue to improve gradually over the next year or so. But I'm not in a hurry. I'd rather listen to what people say, think on it and only modify the layout when it's in keeping with my goal.

[Titan Bariloni]

will be there thursday afternoon with a few DGers....let ya know what we think

[Titan Bariloni]

edit..I just reread thread..Kikki this is in my friendly voice and not my mean voice ..and I know I can't help down there as I am DG work loaded right now..what I can offer is my "opinion" for whats its worth

5 of us played last week(all different players in skill,shots,time played DG so diverse enough to get an honest opinion not just 5 buddies agreeing)...not sure where to begin...when I get some time I will post some issues we ran into out there..one even said he may make his first nefa post ever in multiple years lurking just to say HCC sux'ed..also know 5 locals who won't play there anymore(they fall into the work 50 hours a week and just wanna play can't work on course much...they go to noho,crane now..so that is 10 peeps who won't play..that says something...something BIG..oh derek and the ecos played as well..same thing they picked up disc..so now we are at 14ish players I have directly heard NEVER again.!..add that to the app. 5 peeps each person has told(for a rough number) now have around 50 people who will not play ever..and this will only increase IMO...NOT good as you guys are busting arse and I don't wanna see ya bust arse and get these responses! It truly does pain my heart to know guys are working hard and this is happening..

I will say I have never seen that many disc picked up in one round by multiple players ever..the famous words I heard were "this hole sux" and "I will never come back here ever" "this place is dangerous"

not good phrases to hear

edit...

The only way that the course could be altered is by a complete 18 hole move to the back woods.

IMO this would be best over time..a full swap to the back woods..all players I was with last week agree...are those woods next to the big downhill hole available for this?

Kikki I literally watched 6 near death mishaps in a round in a half..I must admit we went during prime time for HCC 2pm-5pm...hole 7 IMO is far from the best hole as we all stated when arriving on tee..this hole is "trouble" meaning the property line...

well anyways..I will post hole by hole...as input IMO is a must and should be taken seriously..Karl and I may not be there working all day but we both have been interested in HCC well since HCC

[Kelly Conroy]

edit..I just reread thread..Kikki this is in my friendly voice and not my mean voice ..and I know I can't help down there as I am DG work loaded right now..what I can offer is my "opinion" for whats its worth

5 of us played last week(all different players in skill,shots,time played DG so diverse enough to get an honest opinion not just 5 buddies agreeing)...not sure where to begin...when I get some time I will post some issues we ran into out there..one even said he may make his first nefa post ever in multiple years lurking just to say HCC sux'ed..also know 5 locals who won't play there anymore(they fall into the work 50 hours a week and just wanna play can't work on course much...they go to noho,crane now..so that is 10 peeps who won't play..that says something...something BIG..oh derek and the ecos played as well..same thing they picked up disc..so now we are at 14ish players I have directly heard NEVER again.!..add that to the app. 5 peeps each person has told(for a rough number) now have around 50 people who will not play ever..and this will only increase IMO...NOT good as you guys are busting arse and I don't wanna see ya bust arse and get these responses! It truly does pain my heart to know guys are working hard and this is happening..

I will say I have never seen that many disc picked up in one round by multiple players ever..the famous words I heard were "this hole sux" and "I will never come back here ever" "this place is dangerous"

not good phrases to hear

edit...

The only way that the course could be altered is by a complete 18 hole move to the back woods.

IMO this would be best over time..a full swap to the back woods..all players I was with last week agree...are those woods next to the big downhill hole available for this?

Kikki I literally watched 6 near death mishaps in a round in a half..I must admit we went during prime time for HCC 2pm-5pm...hole 7 IMO is far from the best hole as we all stated when arriving on tee..this hole is "trouble" meaning the property line...

well anyways..I will post hole by hole...as input IMO is a must and should be taken seriously..Karl and I may not be there working all day but we both have been interested in HCC well since HCC

Titan what you don't realize is that the course redesign wasn't optional. HCC was going to take over holes 9 and 10 leaving us with 16 holes. The redesign is the only way we could have 18 holes @ HCC. The course as it stands is a better option than none at all.

Gotta say that I have never witness a "near death" experience though...come on man

Also, HCC has always been dangerous. This is a fact.

[Kelly Conroy]

P.S.
HCC has always been second fiddle to Northampton and Crane anyway, so there is no difference.

[Titan Bariloni]

kiki

I agree about HCC always being dangerous....as its not a bevel edged disc area IMO...that said there wasn't many issues that I ever heard

I do know it was a forced redesign...I am fully aware of that and understand

HCC and Noho have always been just OK IMO..nothing to do with anything other then personal taste..as I know most of the issues presented at each course...and know some things are just what they are and will always be..all courses have them..I hope the fad over the years DG is given more priority then a 2ndary "thing" going on

after hole 8 one before the short bus stop hole(I envision the bus stop getting smashed..heck my evil side was saying come on hyzer smash it) I tucked the demon away some might not...anyways the hole before...the lil hill that ya gotta shoot down to the street after pin..as players came down hill momentum propels ya alil forward and there is a blind corner with cars whipping by..and yes peeps almost got smoked..no BS both rounds...granted it was prime time down there..peeps drive crazy there...

instead of posting the OBV for each hole(as they would be no brainers for anyone who knows DG that said knowing about the current options) my suggestion...and I know shart doesn't just happen..and it takes time/permission ect ect...why not shift towards a woodsy course in the woodland area to far side of campus..holes 10-whateva side..the woods look thinned and seems to be some seams already there...leave the holes where they are now and just shift focus on evolving that area..even if its hole by hole until its ready..keeps play going and solves issues that are real and should be given consideration to...this might have been discussed already IDK..IDK if its there land..just a suggestion

again I appreciate the efforts and understand certain frustrations..I agree with having a course over not having one..just think some serious safety issues are present and some holes just don't fit the evolved disc players now throw(regardless if they should be or not they do)

well anyways once a perma plan that makes sense goes down..I will assist in some tee making when your ready to do so...I am sure I can help with a few at least

[Kelly Conroy]

kiki

I agree about HCC always being dangerous....as its not a bevel edged disc area IMO...that said there wasn't many issues that I ever heard

I do know it was a forced redesign...I am fully aware of that and understand

HCC and Noho have always been just OK IMO..nothing to do with anything other then personal taste..as I know most of the issues presented at each course...and know some things are just what they are and will always be..all courses have them..I hope the fad over the years DG is given more priority then a 2ndary "thing" going on

after hole 8 one before the short bus stop hole(I envision the bus stop getting smashed..heck my evil side was saying come on hyzer smash it) I tucked the demon away some might not...anyways the hole before...the lil hill that ya gotta shoot down to the street after pin..as players came down hill momentum propels ya alil forward and there is a blind corner with cars whipping by..and yes peeps almost got smoked..no BS both rounds...granted it was prime time down there..peeps drive crazy there...

instead of posting the OBV for each hole(as they would be no brainers for anyone who knows DG that said knowing about the current options) my suggestion...and I know shart doesn't just happen..and it takes time/permission ect ect...why not shift towards a woodsy course in the woodland area to far side of campus..holes 10-whateva side..the woods look thinned and seems to be some seams already there...leave the holes where they are now and just shift focus on evolving that area..even if its hole by hole until its ready..keeps play going and solves issues that are real and should be given consideration to...this might have been discussed already IDK..IDK if its there land..just a suggestion
again I appreciate the efforts and understand certain frustrations..I agree with having a course over not having one..just think some serious safety issues are present and some holes just don't fit the evolved disc players now throw(regardless if they should be or not they do)

well anyways once a perma plan that makes sense goes down..I will assist in some tee making when your ready to do so...I am sure I can help with a few at least

Not HCC property, otherwise we would have.

[Jay Ducharme]

as players came down hill momentum propels ya alil forward and there is a blind corner with cars whipping by..and yes peeps almost got smoked.

If you follow the arrow off of hole 8 it directs you north toward the fence where there's a much gentler slope.

why not shift towards a woodsy course in the woodland area to far side of campus..holes 10-whateva side..the woods look thinned and seems to be some seams already there

As Kelly said, it's not our property. HCC owns just 30 feet off the road along the north side. A big chunk of that is swamp land that is off-limits per the DEP. That doesn't give us much to work with. I wanted to save as many of the original basket positions as possible because the athletics division wouldn't finance an 18-hole redesign. I'm pretty happy with the result (as are many other players), but as I've said before there's still some tweaking to do. I don't see how the course is any more dangerous than its original incarnation; except for holes 6 - 8, it uses the exact same land area.

It sounds like you chose to play there during classes. Naturally it's going to be busy and congested. But except for holes 9 and 10, the course is actually more removed from traffic than the old design. And if you play on a weekend (when a majority of players do), the road along holes 8 and 9 is usually blocked off to traffic making it a much safer area.

[Titan Bariloni]

I admit..it was HCC prob primest time..so it was tested to max..not a bad thing to do..though

Kiki..I c now about that land..ok outta of the head then...

the story is I trust you guys so we shall c where it goes...my faith was a lil weakened that is all..!

jay is creative so I am sure kinks will be worked out

I see the vision I just urge the spark to continue to sure up some safety issues such as walking and signage about cars at tees(although its tough to make signs when ya dont know what the frig is going on I get that..really do..just keep in mind to maybe remind peeps when the finish product is done and signs go in)

so anyways the walking is tough..I bet one more working season it looks better..

Kikki TY for your help..and Jay your awesome as always..maybe I can respark the locals..coughberniecough

[Titan Bariloni]

pete this is still pure land

just saying

[Pete Charron]

i'm reading...

seems like a round at hcc is in my very near future.. I still haven't played the re-design

[Jay Ducharme]

If you plan on going up there, let me know. I'll give you a guided tour.